I have always had this problem with my DAW Realband or Cubase, when I record my vocal I have always had to apply gain to it, so as to make it fit in with the rest of the realtracks even though the faders are turned down on them.
I am using a fast track pro interface and probably one of the cheaper shure dynamic mics a c606. I turn up the gain pre amp on the interface but make sure its not clipping, set the imput on the Cubase mixer at 0db but still the peaks on the recorded vocal can be like -22db even when the channel fader is turned up to max.
Applying gain cures the problem but should the recorded levels be that low?
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2025, Cubase 14, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
You should be able to get a nice full wave recording to fill the track about 70% to 90%.
Below is an image of a song I did recently with vocals.
Notice the bottom orange colored track is the main vocal and the wave is quite full and comparable to the other tracks.
It would be interesting to see what your screenshots of the track view in your DAW look like.
If the track is nice and full looking like the pic I posted, then the other way to get the vocal to set in the mix better is to PULL EVERYTHING ELSE DOWN. Hey, not trying to be a smart alleck...I have to do that every now and then myself. I often put the vocals into the project last. Everything else is already there and the levels are set... pop in the vocals and you can't hear them. The only workable solution is to lower everything else.....and that works really well.
Now... if your vocal wave forms are flat lined and anemic looking, you are not recording with the mic correctly. You would need to determine what you need to do and how to get it there in order to get a solid, full signal level and a clean wave in the track. When I first started recording vocals and guitars, that's exactly the problem I had.... weak waves. It's a solvable issue.
A pic of your vocal waves would be really helpful at this point
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I think I will have to do a little detective work to try and get the vacals up a bit, Say if I talk close to mic then the clip indicator does light up red in Cubase, So don't want that. It does seem to me that the slightest variation in distance from mic does tend to make a difference in recording, I believe ideal distance to sing into mic is around 6-9 inches, correct me if Im wrong though I suppose there is a personal preferences on that.
I think I will try a different mic as well if I can get my hands on one such as shure 57/58. One I am using is cheapest in shure range shure c606 discontinued now I believe, a few reviews on amazon say that it is a quiet mic
So will try a different mic I think. I do want a dynamic mic as I have tried a condenser before but picked up too much noise in room.
Which would be the best to buy do you think shure 57 or 58? I don't like a mic picking up too much of the bass in my voice so don't know which of the above mics would be better in that regard. Thanks for any advice.
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2025, Cubase 14, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
You would get better quality with a condenser mic, you can put a noise screen around it, does it have a cut or direction switch on it ? or put a pop screen filter in front of the dynamic one to stop you getting too close to clip but keep your nose on it so not to go too soft.
The noise screens are a bit expensive to buy but just google diy condenser microphone noise screen.
Yeah... looking at the vocal wave, it looks pretty anemic. Very similar to mine back in the early days.
Just out of curiosity.... ignore the clip lights and the red lines and all the other stuff that tells you that you are over the limits..... psssst.... don't tell anybody.... but I don't look at the lights and meters very much on the recording side of things but instead, prefer to use them more on playback as opposed to setting recording levels using them. that doesn't mean I ignore them totally, but I don't rely 100% on them for recording levels.
Simply record the track with the levels turned up. Set as the goal to get a larger wave form into the track regardless of anything else. Remember that with the DAW, you can always delete disasters and start over. Start from where you are and turn it up a few db.... look at the wave.....listen to it...... increase it again.... look at it.....listen to it..... keep doing that until you get the wave nicely filling the track view...AND.... where it still sounds completely normal.
LISTEN to the playback. Are there any artifacts of digital clipping? They're generally pretty easy to hear. Are there any "overs" in the wave? Are there any "flat tops" in the wave? If so... you've gone too far...back off.
Experiment and learn what it takes to get nice, unclipped, full looking, and sweet sounding waves. And... remember, it's not about the way it looks.... you want the big fat waves because the signal to noise ratio is better. The big fat wave in track view simply confirms that you have a good solid signal. If you have to turn up that anemic vocal to fit the mix, you also increase any noise in that track. That's not good.
Keep working.... and let us know how this turns out.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/14/1503:51 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
My opinion, especially with your description of desired sound for your voice; SM57.
58's are nice, but for some reason I don't like the bottom end of a 58 on my voice .. the 57 seems to fit me better (others I record with feel the opposite; they like the 58 for their vocals). It's a personal thing. Spec wise they should be very close, but to me they are not.
Plus you can use the 57 on guitar, snare, etc., very serviceable mic. I think it's a great first mic for anybody starting out and if you don't have one, you should!
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Thanks very much folks for all the excellent advice on this problem.
SR I think the driver software is ok though it may not be latest as it records acoustic guitar directly plugged in fine. I have a farm game that my son likes that was for windows 95 (running it on windows 7) and for some reason or other it will only play sound through the fast track pro, so for that reason a bit hesitant to upgrade driver as he may loose his game. I can run it in VMware on xp but better quality on windows 7.
Now its time for a little experimentation and maybe a new mic. My brother I think has a sm57 so will take Rharvs advice and have a shot at that.
Will try recording as well Herb with the level turned up with the present mic to see what happens.
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2025, Cubase 14, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
See if you can get your hands on a decent condenser mic....and NOT one of the USB mics.... Get a "real" mic.
The Fast Track Pro is a decent interface and it has phantom power. I think my mic recordings became effortless what I finally picked up a condenser mic. Dynamics work fine in many circumstances but the condenser really shines in a studio situation.
Go buy a good condenser and try it at home for a few weeks. See if that makes a difference.
I have a Shure SM-58 and man does it sound good on a stage, plugged into a PA. In the studio, it's just OK for voice...and totally miserable for acoustic guitars.
I also own a Rode NT2A. The difference is like day and night. I now use the Rode 99% of the time for my recordings. Vocals, acoustic guitar, and even electric.
You don't have to dump a ton of money to get a good condenser.... just ask around and see what mics people are using.
I can't 100% guarantee it, but I think you will see a huge difference in the signal level you get into the tracks as well as a huge increase in the quality of what you are capturing when you have a better condenser mic on the end of that cable. It took me a few days to get used to my Rode. Partially because it was like going from a TV with a picture tube with an OK picture that everyone was used to... to suddenly having a high definition flat screen where you can see such amazing detail and sharpness in the picture. Just flip that to audio....and I was hearing things I had missed before, and that's not always a good thing initially. "Do I really sound like that?"
All other things aside.... try the condenser mic.... buy one or borrow one.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Which would be the best to buy do you think shure 57 or 58? I don't like a mic picking up too much of the bass in my voice so don't know which of the above mics would be better in that regard. Thanks for any advice.
Quote:
Like Herb said, a good condenser mic is really what most studios will use for vocal recording. However your question was 58 or 57?
The condenser will require phantom power to get a decent signal.
SO... to answer that question specifically.... let me weigh in again:
Neither. Unless you have a specific reason to get a Shure dynamic like the 57 or 58 which are fairly similar in many respects, such as you play live gigs and want a good stage mic.....
Spend your money on a reasonably priced condenser mic. The interface you mentioned that you have already has phantom power so you should be good to go. I'd figure a budget between $150 to $400 for your first condenser.
Using a condenser allows you to sing further back from the mic.... 12 to 24 inches is common with condensers. You'd never sing that far back from a dynamic like the 57/58. Proximity effect, or that bass response you mentioned you didn't like or want is a factor of how close to the mic capsule your mouth is when you sing. Dynamics almost force you in close since they don't pick up like condensers. You can also sing close to a condenser but the point is, you don't have to and that lessens the proximity effect automatically.
NOTE: the only thing I did not see in the specs I looked at briefly, is whether it either has or doesn't have any audio pre-amps. While not always necessary, some mics do benefit from the boost that a built-in pre will give it. Many folks in the Sonar forums who use interfaces without preamps use a small inexpensive mixing board for the preamp. My advice... just plug in a condenser mic, turn on the phantom power, and adjust the input gain and experiment. You may be very pleasantly surprised at the results.
I did find this on a further search at the B&H website:
Quote:
The unit has two high-quality microphone/instrument preamps accessed via convenient front panel hybrid XLR/TRS inputs that can accommodate balanced or unbalanced line or instrument levels. Switchable phantom power and individual -20dB pads are included, as are sixteen channels of MIDI in and out.
so you should be good to go with this and a condenser mic... no further external mixer/preamps needed.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/16/1502:15 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I had the same problem and about a year ago I splurged and got myself a Rode NT2-A.
Since then my recordings became much better (for me) ...not only can I get the volumes but it is also crystal clear. Reflecting and listing to my older stuff I always sounded vaguely muffled, not anymore .....!!
I'm doing allright for Country Trash ....
I used to care, but things have changed (Bob Dylan)
I had the same problem and about a year ago I splurged and got myself a Rode NT2-A.
Since then my recordings became much better (for me) ...not only can I get the volumes but it is also crystal clear. Reflecting and listing to my older stuff I always sounded vaguely muffled, not anymore .....!!
I love my NT2A..... that is a nice mic. Worth the cost.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I always use a condenser mic for vocals when possible .. but the original question was SM57 or SM58 (?)
We could debate all day on price/value of condensers, but again I defer to the original question .. 57 or 58(?)
I basically agree; a $99 condenser is often better for vocals than either a 57 or 58.
However, a condenser mic also requires learning proper technique; they pick up everything! I had one singer tell me "Holy crap; I can hear myself scratching my leg" My reply "Uh, yeah .. so do I"
/along with better sound comes better technique to begin with
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
My little studio is not exactly soundproof and I have now gotten into the habit of preparing and building my RB project and then recording in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep.
I started doing that when I realised far in the back I can actually hear the birds chirping.
I also forgot to say that the NT2/A records my acoustic guitars like I could never get it with the pickups.
When I record playing my Washburn the sound of it actually gets close (to my ears at least) to Willie Nelson's Trigger ... just natural .....
I'm doing allright for Country Trash ....
I used to care, but things have changed (Bob Dylan)
I always use a condenser mic for vocals when possible .. but the original question was SM57 or SM58 (?)
You made the point....as I said earlier......
NEITHER the 57 nor the 58.....
Go buy a medium priced condenser mic.
But as an aside to answer the question: I all depends on the application. I hear 57's are great for drums and cabinets.... 58's seem to be sweet for vocals.... but I don't like using one for vocals in a recording studio situation. I have a 58 and used it out of necessity, only up to the day I got the Rode condenser. The Condenser mics are the best bet there. Realize it will pick up everything.
I was recording a singer in my studio and my wife was working downstairs and was working on some of that poster board paper stuff. I could hear it when the paper crinkled as she laid it out on the floor, in the vocalist's track later on playback. Funny thing was we didn't hear it when it happened. But there it was, on the playback. It picks up dogs barking, trucks and cars, planes, even the AC coming on and off..... I have learned to wok around those noises that it picks up.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Thanks folks for the further replies. I did try a condenser for a few days an AKG that I got from amazon a few years ago. As I have a totally unsound proof room I returned it as I felt it really was picking up a lot of room noise as well, maybe I should have given it a better try to work around the problems.
just out of curiosity the spec of this cheap shure mic is,
frequency response=50-15,000Hz,
600Ohm
-52 dBV/Pa (1000 Hz)
I believe the sm57 has spec,
Frequency Response 40 to 15,000 HzPolar PatternCardioidSensitivity (at 1,000 Hz Open Circuit Voltage)-56.0 dBV/Pa (at 1,000 Hz)
Don't know if anyone can see anything there that might account for its lack of sensitivity, unless in the frequency response being 50 instead of 40 in the cheaper mic
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2025, Cubase 14, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
You may be able to just use EQ on your resulting tracks to get to where you want. The difference between 40-50 Hz low end on a vocal shouldn't be noticeable in the end result. Neither would be wanted on a vocal track here. I'd be cutting that range out out anyway in a normal situation.
As an aside, I have an extremely cheap Audio Technica mic that is terrible for everything but cymbals. The specs say it records a 35-16k range, but the only thing it really is good for is a ride cymbal. Go figger. Lows and mid-lows are terrible, but upper-mids are great.
If a condenser mic was too sensitive, go ahead and try out a 57 or 58. They are quite common; someone you know may have one they can can loan you for a bit. Others here may frown upon them, but they have been used on many multi-platinum recordings so they can't be all bad.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
You should get both the Shure SM58 and the Rode NT1A. An NT2A will run you about $399.00. The NT1A is a great condenser and costs $229.00. Everyone should have a SM58 in their studio anyways and it does a nice job on vocals plus it's a great stage mic. I go back and forth between the 58 and NT1A recording my vocals. It just depends on the song and how bad I'm singing that day.
You can get both for $329.00 which gives you more utility than just getting an NT2A. I'm sure the NT2A is a better condenser than NT1A but I seriously don't think it's $170.00 better.
For the record I have an SM57 also and have used it on vocals but the 58 handles vocals better (IMO).
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