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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Good morning gentlemen. I have 16 songs for a CD of standards featuring my singing. Many of the backing tracks are commercially available tracks and a few were created with RealTracks. I'm trying to get a consistent level among all 16 songs, probably somewhere close to - 12 RMS. Sony sound forge Pro 11 also lets me find the loudness level and RMS. Does - 12 sound reasonable for final mastering? The songs are EQ and limited where I like them. Besides Sound Forge I also use sonar platinum producer. are there any tips tricks or plugins I should consider to try to get these tracks under control? There is not a huge variation I just don't want volume levels to change noticeably between tunes. Someone suggested tone booster loudness meter.
Thank you for any suggestions.
WSS
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Hi Steve.
Strangely, I posted something about this yesterday in our recording tips.
Personally, I still prefer the way it used to be done which is by listening. I know that everything tends to be measured these days, but I don't think that meters are ever as good as ears at judging something so subjective as sound intensity. When I listen to modern albums, or programmes on the TV, this view is reinforced. You don't have to be a sound engineer to know when something is loo loud or too quiet - anyone who has ever reached for the volume control has demonstrated that.
My advice is to get the songs arranged into the playing order and listen to the transitions. Make notes as to which ones need to go up and down. Take the one with the least sound intensity and normalise it. Adjust the others by one db at a time until all the transitions sound good. If it sounds OK to you, it will probably sound OK to everyone else.
I know that this may seem like the view of a Luddite, but I've never found a better way. Hope it helps.
Regards, ROG.
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ROG is right about listening. You might consider use of a metering plugin that uses 'k' metering. The 'k' is in reference to Bob Katz, who is a pretty well known mastering engineer and devised a more loudness based method of metering than just SPL. Bob has lots of reading on this topic on his website, with plenty of recommended tracks for evidence of preserving dynamics and not just pushing levels for the loudness war. SPAN by Voxengo is a freebie FFT analyzer that also has K-metering: http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/Bob Katz's website: http://www.digido.com/But as ROG suggests, put your ears to use primarily. Recordable CDs are cheap. Sequence your tracks the way that you think they should be on the CD and listen to them in order, as well as on shuffle in your various available playback positions. Take notes of differences in levels that are surprising (may not be a bad thing) between tracks.
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FWIW, -12 RMS doesn't sound like it would be an issue to me. I like PAR meter for this type of measuring. http://www.kvraudio.com/product/par_meter_by_rocksonics_professional_audio
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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3 Rs.  . Thank you for your responses gentlemen! Yes that is certainly correct. I've gone through a dozen discs back and forth to various listening devices. I just get to the point where I don't trust my ears and want to fine tune things probably beyond necessity. Another problem I am having in that area, which should probably be another post, is consistency with the Eq. I don't know if my Roland ds90 monitors are the culprit but once I get the CD to the car it sounds really really bottom heavy. along with the ears I'm wondering if a spectrum analyzer might let me see where the bass levels should be. It's easier with a real tracks next, I can just go back and drop the bass level a tad. but a pre-recorded track might need to have the bass squashed a little. Again it comes down to trusting my own ears. Most commercial CDs are a lot lighter on the bottom than mine, but not always. I'm just making this particular project for fun, no intention of selling it so I'm loathe to spend the money on professional mastering. Plus it's a learning experience. Thanks again fellows! WSS
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For mastering.....ears above meters, but use the meters to be sure nothing gets clipped.
With a notepad and a pen, listen to the songs in the order you will have them on the CD. Have them set up in a player that will play back exactly like the CD will be burned.
Make notes, and them make the adjustments..... repeat this process until you are happy.
All the songs should be at the appropriate levels relative to each other, and they should all have the same tonal and sonic qualities. Essentially it should sound like it was all recorded in the same studio at the same time, by the same musicians with the same engineer working the board.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hi Steve.
The Roland ds90 monitors are seriously good, so I would trust them over the car stereo. If in doubt, try your CD on a few friends systems - the more you try the better idea you'll have.
If you want a spectrum analyser, Realband already has one (PG RTA). Just insert it on the main output bus (A1) and watch it in real time.
ROG.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Thank you sir, I do like the DSs a lot. It's not the car stereo is a good place to monitor but only when I A B my mixes with a cd I think sounds just right.
I have boosted the LF on the Rolands a tad.
WSS
Last edited by Westside Steve; 05/04/15 04:58 AM.
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When you do your mastering I think it is important to listen to the music through not only your main monitors but also a range of different playabck systems including pretty bad speakers too. It needs to sound good in mono too. Bad playback systems can actually reveal faults in mix and don't forget your music needs to sound good on everything from small radios to hifi systems.
As far as your levels are concerned maybe find a CD in the same style that you like the sound of and put a track or two from that CD on your project so that you can A B your own tracks and compare sound levels. If you choose a pretty recent CD they will all have more commercial (louder!) levels.
I use the VST Voxengo Elephant which can turn up track volumes whilst maintaining the sound quality. It also gives info on sound output levels. I think you can download a trial to test it out. It's pretty affordable.
Last edited by funkycornwall; 05/06/15 06:12 AM.
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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Steve, I had the same issue with my Wharfedale monitors. They are bottom LIGHT, so when I make the low end correct for listening through them, everywhere else the bottom end is too heavy. I would say do a mix where the bass seems too low in those Rolands and see if it is correct everywhere else.
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The important thing here is that no matter what monitoring system you use, and you should be using the best monitors you can afford to own, you also need to LEARN that speaker system to be able to get the best and most consistent results that translate well to the majority of the speaker systems your songs might be played on.
The big studios don't set there and play the material on multiple speaker systems. Most of them do not have the time to do that. They use ONE system that they know the EQ on and when it's played on TV, radio, stereo systems, car stereo, mp3 players etc, it's 99% accurate on them all. Good mastering will do that for you, but you have to know the speaker system to get that result every time.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I agree it is important to master your music on the best speakers you can and also become used to how they sound and respond. However they should be proper monitors designed for mixing audio and not hifi speakers. Hifi speakers are designed to flatter and hype the sound and this is the last thing you need when mixing audio.
I stand by my recommendation though to augment your mastering process by playing your mixes and masters on a variety of other speakers. Play them on ear-buds, in the car stereo, maybe through a mono radio. Bad speakers really will show up where the mix is going wrong and your songs need to sound good on all systems.
You also need top give your ears a break. Maybe do your mixing and mastering and then return to it a few days later. It is amazing how faults you did not notice before leap out at you now.
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Hi rharv Par Meter is no longer available?
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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I guess not .. bummer
I bought it a few years back and liked it.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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In case anyone else is interested I got a tip from the Sony Sound Forge forum suggested, because I also own Sony Vegas Pro 13, that 13 has a feature that levels the audio for an entire video. he said load the tracks into the audio track of a project and level everything at once. strange that sound forge would also have that, but... At any rate I just got everything as close to -12 RMS and 9.7 loudness and just adjusted by ear. I think it's pretty close, considering the variations in the tracks.
WSS
Last edited by Westside Steve; 05/09/15 02:26 AM.
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