|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 479
Journeyman
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 479 |
So I always record in 24 bit in Sonar platinum mixdown to 24 bit, work on the songs in sony sound forge in 24 bit and burn them to CD with cd architect. The people manufacturing my latest project asked me to upload the files as 16 bit. I've always thought that was logical as it's going to wind up that way but mastering houses asked me for 24 bit masters. Oddly enough after I'd saved the songs as 16 bit and burned test discs I found I liked that sound better than doing it from 24. In case anyone's interested.
WSS
Last edited by Westside Steve; 05/09/15 02:02 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
Hi Steve.
Recording in 24 bit gives you a bigger dynamic range than 16 bit. That being said, most pop/rock tracks don't use a quarter of the dynamic range of even 16 bit, so it really doesn't matter which you use in that respect.
However, if you record in 24 bit to burn a CD (16 bit) you introduce an extra process called dithering. Depending on the program and algorithm used for dithering, some people say they can hear the difference. There is a similar conversion process if you record in 16 bit for burning to a DVD (24 bit).
Personally, I like to keep the same bit rate throughout the project, even though I can't really discern any difference - it just feels tidier that way!
I'm sure my pal rharv will wade in on this one, even though I know that discussions about dithering give him headaches.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,664
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,664 |
Yeah.... what ROG said.
I always record in 24 bit and Sonar will render it to 16 for a wave. You can select 24 but in my case, it's really not needed.
Mastering houses want as much dynamic range head room as they can get.
With the popular use of compressors, I would venture to say that headroom gets squashed out quite drastically in some genres.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383 |
even though I know that discussions about dithering give him headaches
Section IV of this PDF puts it in 'simplified terms' (which can still produce headaches): http://downloads.izotope.com/guides/izotope-dithering-with-ozone.pdf.. and here's more detail for actual use: http://help.izotope.com/docs/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm Statements like the below are what gives me headaches: "Well, the theoretical maximum signal to noise ratio of a 16-bit recording is about 96 dB. That means, in basic terms, that the noise floor of a 16-bit recording is around -96 dB. The noise floor should not be confused (but often is) with dynamic range, which represents the difference between the loudest and softest signal that you can hear in the recording. You can hear a dynamic range which extends past the noise floor with proper dithering. Even if a signal is "in the noise", you will still hear it with proper dithering. " /confused yet?
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
I knew you wouldn't let me down, rharv.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383 |
 Found this recently also, interesting read for those who think they understand it all : http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
A simply riveting read.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,918
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,918 |
ROG, For rharv's last link, which of the 229 pages are you thinking of? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383 |
yeah, at about page 76 I really lost interest <grin>
/Point is, it's really just academic for most users .. if they want 24 bit, send 'em 24 bit
Last edited by rharv; 05/10/15 11:11 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
"Point is, it's really just academic for most users .. if they want 24 bit, send 'em 24 bit"
That sums it up perfectly, rharv. Good thread, though, all the same.
ROG.
Edit - I'm surprised you're not pushing that avatar into the red a bit.
Last edited by ROG; 05/10/15 11:18 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
I had a semester long master's level course in Digital Signal Processing, EE-638, at Purdue University.
There's plenty of mind-bending stuff in that course, but bit depth is one of the easier things to understand.
In a 16 bit A/D, there is 1 of 2^16 possible values the A/D converter stuffs the conversion into. That's 1 of 65,536 shelves to put the data on. When the A/D puts the data on a shelf, it's called quantization in the amplitude domain. Many books visualize this as a stair-step kind of a picture. 65,536 possible steps to be on.
In a 24 bit A/D, there is 1 of 2^24 shelves, or 1 of 16,777,216 possible steps to put the data on, to represent the same possible overall magnitude of the signal.
What this means is that the step height for 24 bit is way smaller than in a 16 bit recording. In fact, there are 256 of the 24 bit steps in a single 16 bit step.
So, why should we care?
Well, when the data is converted back to analog from the digital representation, there is a bit of noise that is generated taking that step value, and then doing the magic back to analog.
The easiest situation to think about is a signal that is nominally zero. The A/D process has to take the zero and decide is it going on the smallest shelf or the next largest shelf. Basically, 0000000000000000 or 0000000000000001 in the binary representation, for a 16 bit signal. For a 24 bit signal, it's 000000000000000000000000 or 000000000000000000000001. (those of you that know signed/little/big endian, etc. work with me here!)
IF the signal happens to be set on the 0....01 shelf in either case, when it's converted back to analog, that actually is something bigger than zero and a tiny bit of noise results in the analog signal.
For a 24 bit recording, this noise, known as quantization noise, is 48 dB quieter than in a 16 bit recording.
So again, why should we home recording types care?
Well, this 'which shelf?' decision happens for every single shelf, not just the lowest two shelves.
With 24 bit, this means you can record with your signal much less 'hot' and still get pristine A/D and ultimately D/A representation. With 16 bit recording, it's more of a concern to maximize the analog signal range to cover as much of the 2^16 values, so that those steps matter less when converting back D/A. With 24 bit recording, one almost has to work hard to make the signal level be so quiet that quantization noise factors into the output story/sound.
That was one takeaway from that class that sunk in. The other was how D/A conversion actually does recreate a smooth analog signal and not a stair-stepped analog signal, through the output anti-aliasing filter impulse responses of each sample. That's a discussion for a different day.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/10/15 02:31 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,732
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,732 |
Thanks rockstar_not. That's starting to delve a little into my Electronics Engineering education from the 80's.
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,918
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,918 |
Depending on your daw settings, when a song project is created using both 16 and 24 bit depth material, one or the other will be automatically or manually converted to match the daw setting as audio files are imported into the daw.
Pg Music audio tracks are 16 bit depth. If your audio interface is set to 24 bit depth and your using RealTracks, either your audio or PG Music audio is being converted. As two or more tracks are summed into a single track the daw is most likely using 24 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit floating decimal, 48 bit, 64 bit or 64 bit floating decimal calculations to maintain fidelity of the summed signals.
It use to be the advice was to keep the same bit depth throughout a project until dithering was used during the last step of conversion to 16 bit for CD mastering.
While the advice may be a good ideal to strive for, as a practical matter I think the inherent limitations of home recording such as noisy recording environment or people double tasking as performer and engineer create more quality of sound issues than whatever noise is introduced by multiple conversions.
You go Rockstar_not. I couldn't type that many zeros without loosing count!
I believe the increased headroom 24 bit depth recording provides overshadows any other consideration in a home studio. The additional 12 db of headroom may mean the difference between grabbing the perfect take versus the prefect take ruined because of a passage was recorded too loud.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,383 |
I'm surprised you're not pushing that avatar into the red .. It was a timing thing .. when you take the shot you have to anticipate. I was aiming for getting the "0" but figured it was good enough as is. /I don't even remember what I took that shot with, but I took it. I even cropped the 'roundness' from the rest of the image. It exhausted my graphic abilities at the time. <grin> I think that particular preamp has an issue where the meter light doesn't work anymore .. or something. It's still here somewhere though.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Video: New User Interface (GUI)
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new user interface in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®! This modern GUI redesign offers a sleek new look with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, and a smoother workflow. The brand-new side toolbar puts track selection, the MultiPicker Library, and other essential tools right at your fingertips. Plus, our upgraded Multi-View lets you layer multiple windows without overlap, giving you a highly flexible workspace. Many windows—including Tracks, Piano Roll, and more—have been redesigned for improved usability and a cleaner, more intuitive interface, and more!
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,295
Posts790,699
Members39,854
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean