I can easily foresee this would make them unplayable on quite a number of systems & puters...
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
This request makes sense to me, assuming the master recordings were created at a higher bit rate. RealTracks (and RealDrums) are a means to an end: constructing a song, preferably in a DAW that can handle higher bit and sample rates. Mix and master using the best quality available, then render down to whatever you want, 16 bit for CDs or whatever for MP3. It's not as if someone is going to play a raw RealTrack file in an MP3 player.
BIAB would have to be improved to handle 24-bit, perhaps converting to 16-bit for song development but exporting at 24-bit?
This would also make the audiophile drive even larger to accommodate these larger files. Nevertheless,
+1
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Eddie please explain why you think switching the bit depth of RealTracks from 16 to 24 bits would make them unplayable on many systems.
I simply meant precisely what I said. But just to further underline my initial comment, I could add that there are a number of computer speakers (and sound cards) which wouldn't be able to cope with a bitrate above the CD standard of 16. Then again, I guess one could say Audiophile buyers might be expected to have more advanced gear than those, but you never know.
And that was all, really.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
I vote for 24 bit / 48kHz Audiophile Real Tracks. Folks who don't have the capability of playing this format can always use the regular WMA formatted RealTracks. I was going to upgrade my current BIAB to the Audiophile version in order to obtain better sound quality. But I now understand the Audiophile quality is only marginally better - still 16 bit audio. Bummer.
It is awfully difficult to define "marginally" all that clearly in this discussion. I think the difference might be a bit more than marginally, but less than majorly (no pun intended), if that makes any sense to you without hearing it yourself.
You are right, though, about requesting both a higher sampling rate and a higher bit rate, if PG Music has recorded the masters this way and can provide them. Keith also makes a great point: I am also willing to pay more for the better quality files.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Please consider changing Audiophile RealTracks from 16 bit depth to 24 bit depth.
I would also really appreciate this.
I was just doing tests this past week and importing BIAB tracks into my DAW where I always work at 24bit/48kHz. There is a noticeable degradation of the BIAB bedtracks because the upsampling adds some slur to the tracks. It's not a huge degradation, but some of the crispness is gone.
If I work with them at 16bit/44.1kHz then all of my added guitars, vocals, percussion and any other instruments will be at the lower quality, which I don't want to do, so it becomes a tradeoff.
It would certainly be nice if we didn't have to degrade the quality of the BIAB Audiophile tracks as soon as we're ready to start working with them outside of BIAB.
Originally Posted By: Icelander
I can easily foresee this would make them unplayable on quite a number of systems & puters...
For those who don't work 24bit/48kHz, these tracks could still be useable for you because BIAB would simply allow for them to be converted on output down to 16bit/44.1kHz, and since the data is starting out at the higher resolution you should experience ZERO loss when it is downsampled.
Please consider changing Audiophile RealTracks from 16 bit depth to 24 bit depth.
yes yes yes +1 +1 +1
I would be very happy even if all internal operations were at 16 bit, including playback, but with the possibility to export / render at 24 bit. That would be good enough for me (provided that the original recordings were actually done at 24 bit of course).
I see we have resurrected a thread that began three years ago. If anyone wants a little more background about the audiophile version versus the ‘regular’ version (as they exist now, not what has been requested in this thread), go to the Tips and Tricks Forum. You’ll find a sticky post that I wrote in the beginning of BIAB 2017.
If any are interested to "see" the difference between recording at 44.1/16 and 48/24 i've attached a video with a simple demonstration. Jump to 3:00 in the video where the actual experiment begins.
I post this realizing that it may be an old thread, but I agree with this sentiment. I quit submitting anything to songtradr after I realized that they want the higher bit rate stuff. Anything under 24 bit won't do. When I am recording at home I always use 24 bit, but as someone has already mentioned, mixing the two bit rates is not a desirable thing. If I could afford the audiophile version, I most certainly would do it, but sadly I can't. Raising the bit rate would be an easy enough proposition, but I also realize that this might cause the sales of the audiophile version to suffer. It is something that I find of value to me and others, but from a business point of view, maybe not so much.
I post this realizing that it may be an old thread, but I agree with this sentiment. I quit submitting anything to songtradr after I realized that they want the higher bit rate stuff. Anything under 24 bit won't do. When I am recording at home I always use 24 bit, but as someone has already mentioned, mixing the two bit rates is not a desirable thing. If I could afford the audiophile version, I most certainly would do it, but sadly I can't. Raising the bit rate would be an easy enough proposition, but I also realize that this might cause the sales of the audiophile version to suffer. It is something that I find of value to me and others, but from a business point of view, maybe not so much.
The Audiophile package is the ONLY package that offers uncompressed, lossless RealTracks and RealDrums audio files as well as the compressed, lossy RealTracks and RealDrums audio files that are the standard for all the other packages. The compressed files are decompressed and restored to a lossless format each time a RealTrack or RealDrum file is loaded into Band-in-a-Box or RealBand. However, by definition some audio data is lost and a restored audio track is a degraded substitute of the original lossless audio file. For these reasons a user using Band-in-a-Box to create professional quality audio files needs to use the Audiophile package. Since professionals (in other words someone wanting to make money with Band-in-a-Box) need the quality of the Audiophile package PG Music can ask a price professionals will pay.
The bit depth standard for recorded audio appears to be 24 bit with conversion to 16 bit typically the last step when creating a master track for compact disc.
My thought is since the overwhelming majority of professional tracking and stem audio files are 24 bit PG Music RealTracks and RealDrums should match the specification.
Guitar1, thank you for giving your support to this wish list request.
I was just doing tests this past week and importing BIAB tracks into my DAW where I always work at 24bit/48kHz. There is a noticeable degradation of the BIAB bedtracks because the upsampling adds some slur to the tracks. It's not a huge degradation, but some of the crispness is gone.
If this is happening to you, some setting is wrong. Upsampling to 24-bit adds headroom but does not degrade quality.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
The Band-in-a-Box Audiophile tracks are 16 bit at 44.1 Khz sampling rate. That conforms to the compact audio disc standard. The 48 Khz sampling rate you're presently using in your DAW conforms to a video standard.
I would change the DAW sample rate setting to match the RealTracks. You are not gaining any audible advantage by having the DAW convert them to 48 Khz.
Bit depth is a different matter. DAWs routinely change bit depth so they can accurately mix multiple audio files.
If you use RealBand you can set it to 24/48 then it will generate them up at that rate. The Plugin should have this feature soon so it will generate the tracks up to the same bitrate as the DAW. But it will be inevitable that the RealTracks/Drums will become 24bit, it's just PG is a bit slow but they will get there.
TEST: I converted a RealTrack to 24/48 it generated fine in RealBand with it set to 44/16 or 24/48 but Biab just had noise for the audio. Some time back I tried it with MacBB and it was fine.
I agree RealBand can convert audio file bit depths, but I'm not requesting for Band-in-a-Box to convert file bit depth. Instead I'm requesting the Audiophile edition waveform files adhere to a 24 bit depth standard.
My thought is people that purchase the Audiophile addition likely plan to use the waveform files as source material to create commercial audio. My understanding is it is easier to mix audio files that have 24 bit depth than the same audio files with 16 bit depth because 24 bit depth has more available headroom than a comparable 16 bit depth file.
Yes daws can covert 16 bit files to 24 bit but conversion can introduce errors.
If someone has their daw set to use 24 bit audio files inside the daw so they can utilize the extra headroom but plan on exporting a 16 bit track then the PG Music source files will be converted twice so there will be double the chance of error.
Upgrading to a 24/48 standard would be fantastic. It won't change what's already been recorded at 16/41.1, but at least it would be something. 24-bit would definitely get the tracks more dynamic room, which is super important on the jazz and bluegrass tracks. But upping the bitrate to at least 48k would make all the pitch/time shifting function so much better. More samples = potentially fewer artifacts when transposing or time stretching the tracks.
So either change would be a HUGE step in improving BIAB. However, it would also really only affect the Audiophile users. (Can you even make a 24/48 mp3?) And I'm guessing that's such a small nitch of their users - plus it would exponentially expand the size of the files required - that they probably don't think it's a cost-effective idea. But it would greatly improve the audio quality of their product.
.. Angelo, The demos are made with the standard version, not the audiophile, so as to reproduce exactly what you’ll get. We make hundreds of demos in a very short period of time. The process is simple, pick a style, type in some chords press play and then render by dragging and dropping. Takes less than 5 minutes per demo, and nothing special is done to them.
> So if you have the audiophile version, the RealTracks should actually be BETTER than the demos.
Matt, Yes, exactly.
On a similar point, I’ve read online discussions from audio experts on distribution of sound content, and the consensus is that 44.1 Khz/16 is the best distribution format (which is the audiophile). The point is that distributing in higher audio format than that was not considered beneficial (e.g. 48khz, 24 bit). The point being a 44.1/16 bit file imported into a 48KHz/24 bit DAW project sounds the same as if it was 48/24bit to begin with.
This “distribution format” is not to be confused with mixing and recording a project, which benefits from higher rates (48, 96KHz) and 24 bit. And of course we record and mix the RealTracks at these higher rates (typically 48KHz/24 bit) , and only the final mix is to 44.1/16 for distribution.
If I recall correctly Peter also said the RealTracks are recorded at higher bit and sample rates, hence the mention of distributing them at 16/44.1.
As far as I have learned, upsampling from 16-bit to 24 does not introduce errors. Nor does it increase quality. It does increase file size. It does give more headroom for mixing.
Now, downsampljng to 16-bit audio (called dithering) does introduce some degradation of quality.
Given these facts, I would like to have the option of working with the audio files as they were originally recorded. I realize the size of the files would increase considerably over the already huge audiophile version (over 1.5 TB) but drive size is no longer the impediment it was and it would be nice if those willing to pay for an even larger drive had that choice.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Upgrading to a 24/48 standard would be fantastic. It won't change what's already been recorded at 16/41.1, but at least it would be something. 24-bit would definitely get the tracks more dynamic room, which is super important on the jazz and bluegrass tracks. But upping the bitrate to at least 48k would make all the pitch/time shifting function so much better. More samples = potentially fewer artifacts when transposing or time stretching the tracks.
So either change would be a HUGE step in improving BIAB. However, it would also really only affect the Audiophile users. (Can you even make a 24/48 mp3?) And I'm guessing that's such a small nitch of their users - plus it would exponentially expand the size of the files required - that they probably don't think it's a cost-effective idea. But it would greatly improve the audio quality of their product.
Catch-22.
Moving Air, The difference in quality between 44.1K and 48K is realistically so small as to be difficult to be noticed. The reason why both exist is because each is part of two somewhat competing audio standards, one for film and one for audio. 48K is part of a motion picture standard for audio paired with video while 44.1K is part of the audio compact disc standard originally created by Sony and Phillips. So when it's appropriate to use 44.1K versus 48K kind of depends on where the audio is destined to end up; in a video or strictly audio project.
Many forum members post music videos while others create audio streams and CDs so there really is no correct answer now. However since most audio content, loops for example, is still packaged for audio use the 44.1K sample rate seems more common than 48K.
Yes, I know this. Doesn't change the physics of my statement though. It's an "every little bit helps" type of comment. I don't see them ever releasing this at 24/96k, which would substantially help the stretch algorithm, but until then, I'm looking for a realistic step up in quality. That's all. Upsampling for YouTube is really a 'farting into the wind' kind of idea, considering how YouTube will again otherwise mess with your audio. So I'm looking for a practical quality improvement.
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