|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
East Side Eddie is going to love this topic!
Listening the that jimmy buffet reference track there are couple things I am trying to put my finger on. There definitely seems to be an underlying ambiance to the recording, which I think is, in part, due to the analog tape recording process and room dynamics.
Ozone 6 has removed reverb as one of its mastering tools (I see lots of folks complained about that), but I decided to add a bit of light reverb to the master buss on a couple of songs to see what it can do.
My philosophy was that if I could actually hear the reverb, then I added too much. It looks like I have settled on 10-12% wet/dry mix for now. I think it is better -- but I will have to see how it holds up over time.
Any thoughts on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669 |
Yep... I'll comment.
I don't like and rarely use the Ozone reverb. I prefer the Cakewalk plug in called Studioverb2.
Using reverb in a master buss or even a mix buss is generally where you will find the reverbs in my mixes.
I usually subscribe to the theory that reverb should not really be heard. I will turn it up to the point I can hear it clearly and then back it down. There's been many times where I do have the verb up where it's audible, and most of the time, it's there for the effect it gives. (Larger room as opposed to small studio room) I often have levels around or below 10% in the busses.
Reverb is cumulative, so if you have a 7% verb in the track, a 9% verb in the mix buss, and then throw in a 12% "blending verb" in the master buss, it's really easy to end up with too much verb and wonder where it's coming from. Generally the easy solution is to go back to the track and disable the track verb.... check the mix and work your way up.
Verb in the master can be useful in blending things and taking the edge off to give the whole project a cohesiveness. But yes, you do want to be careful here that you don't have it sounding like a huge auditorium unless that's what you're going for.
Edit: reverb is kinda like salt or grated cheese.... how much you want to use depends on your tastes. Not enough leaves you wanting more... too much... well maybe the cheese analogy was a bad one... I mean, you can never have enough cheese on something...right? But too much salt will ruin a dish quickly.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/06/15 12:56 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 15,836
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 15,836 |
Having never used the post mix reverb in Ozone 5 I don't miss it in 6. I use Ozone's EMT 140 Plate simulation reverb on each track with the notion of helping them properly sit in the mix - get along with their fellow tracks. Y'all mentioned the procedure of adding reverb to the mix and then reducing it to where you cannot hear the effect. If you accurately A/B (controlling for gain changes) "with and without" and hear no change....I'm stumped. Are you using some sort of sixth sense to discern the difference? 
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,042
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,042 |
My songs can either have a lot, a little or no reverb at all. It depends on the song.
In Sonar I create a reverb buss, send each track that I want reverb on to that buss then adjust the amount of reverb in each track individually. I do this as I usually don't like reverb on a bass or kick track plus I like to use the same reverb for all tracks. The only exception to this is guitar amp reverb as sometimes I use it on the guitar track. Another advantage of this is that I like different levels of reverb on different tracks, for instance a lot of reverb on the snare and no reverb on the rest of the kit. You can also add depth to individual tracks by the amount of reverb.
I do this while listening to the entire song. As Herb said reverb is accumulative so if you add reverb to each track while it is soloed then at the end you could end up with an overwhelming amount of reverb.
Just my workflow, YMMV.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669 |
Y'all mentioned the procedure of adding reverb to the mix and then reducing it to where you cannot hear the effect. If you accurately A/B (controlling for gain changes) "with and without" and hear no change....I'm stumped. Are you using some sort of sixth sense to discern the difference? This is actually the one instance where I do use a visual reference, because I still need to control what I can't necessarily hear clearly. Looking at the numbers is the best way to accomplish that. I have the track playing and Studioverb2's interface is open. I turn it up to the point where I can hear it effecting the track. At the same time, I'm watching the percentage of verb in the SV2 GUI. Generally, I can hear it clearly at 15% to 20% depending on the style of reverb I am using.... dark plate, bright plate, etc.... Then I turn it back down until it becomes hard to hear or seems to have gone away totally.... it's generally around 10% to 14% or so at this time. I will solo the track at this point...or the mix buss, depending on the project, and during playback, use the on/off button on the GUI in my Sonar FX bin to A/B the verb in the track. At this point, yes, in solo mode you can hear the verb come on and off mostly due to the ambient change in the track/buss. It's usually very subtle. With the track in the mix, the change is not apparent, BUT... the reverb is still there. It's this same window with the percentage that I will rely upon if I need to come back to reduce the verb levels later due to the cumulative effect of other verbs in the chain. Many things in the mixing world are exactly like this.... including layering of lead and harmony vocals for doubling/fattening, and especially when dealing with the higher frequencies in EQ. These things may not be solidly evident in a mix, but they certainly make a difference in what the final mix sounds like. It's the little things that count. As people begin to grasp this concept, their mixing begins to improve. Details matter.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 15,836
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 15,836 |
I certainly agree that details matter. And for nearly 50 years (off and on) I've struggled with what constitutes the "right" amount of reverb from live gigs to occasional studio settings. But if we have a finished mix and are satisfied with it and ready to master I still don't understand how adding reverb during mastering and then turning it down below the JND* can add any value. Now during the mix process I can grasp how reverb on a track might be turned down to an imperceptible level per that track and yet influence the sound of the mix (as it interacts with other tracks).
*"just noticeable difference" as we used say back in the research days
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669 |
if we have a finished mix and are satisfied with it and ready to master I still don't understand how adding reverb during mastering and then turning it down below the JND* can add any value. Now during the mix process I can grasp how reverb on a track might be turned down to an imperceptible level per that track and yet influence the sound of the mix (as it interacts with other tracks).
In my process, I actually start heading towards the final mix right from the start. So I do not "finish a mix" and then master it and add reverb. I'm working toward the final mastered mix from the very beginning of the first track. I'm adding and deleting things and changing the levels as I go along. So when I reach the end, everything is in place and the project is ready to export "as is". Many folks mix first to a raw wave and then master/sweeten the mix. Not me. But I do agree... if the mix is finished and sounds good and all that's left is to master or sweeten.... there's no significant purpose or gain by adding a verb that you can't hear. At that point, the gain will be through compression and EQ, and that's about the extent of the plugs one needs to use on a finished mix.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
If I am adding reverb to the master buss and I hear reverb then I have added too much. Same philosophy with the high pass filter on the low end to get rid of stuff you can't hear but adds unwanted energy as you move along.
If I listen to the wav files with and without the reverb added, I can tell there is a slight difference, but I can't say "Oh, that's reverb".
At the moment I can't tell if it is better or not (or maybe they aren't any different -- ha, ha). I may have to get someone else to A-B them for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 15,836
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 15,836 |
I think the conversation just reinforces the truism that all of this is ultimately personal. There are certainly no absolutes. I answered by saying I don't use it in the master bus. And I tried to imply that if I did I would leave it at a level where I could discern it's presence. Now with the new rockabilly RT's I can see a production where I would put it on the master and crank it up.
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 11
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 11 |
You're spot on when you say that generally, if you can 'hear' the reverb, it's too much. ....Generally! There was the 80's, of course.... but that's another story! Nick One Flight Up Recording Studios
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,669 |
It's certainly a matter of taste and at times it's genre and style specific.... Imagine some of Elvis and Buddy Holly's stuff without that characteristic slap back echo/verb sound. It just wouldn't be the same.
There are not absolutes and certainly no right way or wrong way to do it.
On a given dry mix, you can apply reverb to make it sound like the setting is a small intimate club, or a huge stadium show. Totally up to the person mixing what effect they are going for.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2 |
I'm having a problem monitoring 'wet' but recording dry - vocalists might want an effect - but the producer may want to delete and re introduce - looking for the best way to interface this using a DAW and an external soundcard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2 |
Quick way to monitor wet and record dry using a daw a reverb unit and an external interface.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Video: New User Interface (GUI)
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new user interface in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®! This modern GUI redesign offers a sleek new look with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, and a smoother workflow. The brand-new side toolbar puts track selection, the MultiPicker Library, and other essential tools right at your fingertips. Plus, our upgraded Multi-View lets you layer multiple windows without overlap, giving you a highly flexible workspace. Many windows—including Tracks, Piano Roll, and more—have been redesigned for improved usability and a cleaner, more intuitive interface, and more!
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,350
Posts791,165
Members39,859
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean