|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
East Side Eddie is going to love this topic!
Listening the that jimmy buffet reference track there are couple things I am trying to put my finger on. There definitely seems to be an underlying ambiance to the recording, which I think is, in part, due to the analog tape recording process and room dynamics.
Ozone 6 has removed reverb as one of its mastering tools (I see lots of folks complained about that), but I decided to add a bit of light reverb to the master buss on a couple of songs to see what it can do.
My philosophy was that if I could actually hear the reverb, then I added too much. It looks like I have settled on 10-12% wet/dry mix for now. I think it is better -- but I will have to see how it holds up over time.
Any thoughts on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809 |
Yep... I'll comment.
I don't like and rarely use the Ozone reverb. I prefer the Cakewalk plug in called Studioverb2.
Using reverb in a master buss or even a mix buss is generally where you will find the reverbs in my mixes.
I usually subscribe to the theory that reverb should not really be heard. I will turn it up to the point I can hear it clearly and then back it down. There's been many times where I do have the verb up where it's audible, and most of the time, it's there for the effect it gives. (Larger room as opposed to small studio room) I often have levels around or below 10% in the busses.
Reverb is cumulative, so if you have a 7% verb in the track, a 9% verb in the mix buss, and then throw in a 12% "blending verb" in the master buss, it's really easy to end up with too much verb and wonder where it's coming from. Generally the easy solution is to go back to the track and disable the track verb.... check the mix and work your way up.
Verb in the master can be useful in blending things and taking the edge off to give the whole project a cohesiveness. But yes, you do want to be careful here that you don't have it sounding like a huge auditorium unless that's what you're going for.
Edit: reverb is kinda like salt or grated cheese.... how much you want to use depends on your tastes. Not enough leaves you wanting more... too much... well maybe the cheese analogy was a bad one... I mean, you can never have enough cheese on something...right? But too much salt will ruin a dish quickly.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/06/15 01:56 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,069
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,069 |
Having never used the post mix reverb in Ozone 5 I don't miss it in 6. I use Ozone's EMT 140 Plate simulation reverb on each track with the notion of helping them properly sit in the mix - get along with their fellow tracks. Y'all mentioned the procedure of adding reverb to the mix and then reducing it to where you cannot hear the effect. If you accurately A/B (controlling for gain changes) "with and without" and hear no change....I'm stumped. Are you using some sort of sixth sense to discern the difference? 
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,567
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,567 |
My songs can either have a lot, a little or no reverb at all. It depends on the song.
In Sonar I create a reverb buss, send each track that I want reverb on to that buss then adjust the amount of reverb in each track individually. I do this as I usually don't like reverb on a bass or kick track plus I like to use the same reverb for all tracks. The only exception to this is guitar amp reverb as sometimes I use it on the guitar track. Another advantage of this is that I like different levels of reverb on different tracks, for instance a lot of reverb on the snare and no reverb on the rest of the kit. You can also add depth to individual tracks by the amount of reverb.
I do this while listening to the entire song. As Herb said reverb is accumulative so if you add reverb to each track while it is soloed then at the end you could end up with an overwhelming amount of reverb.
Just my workflow, YMMV.
Back in my day the only time we started panic buying was when the bartender shouted "last call"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809 |
Y'all mentioned the procedure of adding reverb to the mix and then reducing it to where you cannot hear the effect. If you accurately A/B (controlling for gain changes) "with and without" and hear no change....I'm stumped. Are you using some sort of sixth sense to discern the difference? This is actually the one instance where I do use a visual reference, because I still need to control what I can't necessarily hear clearly. Looking at the numbers is the best way to accomplish that. I have the track playing and Studioverb2's interface is open. I turn it up to the point where I can hear it effecting the track. At the same time, I'm watching the percentage of verb in the SV2 GUI. Generally, I can hear it clearly at 15% to 20% depending on the style of reverb I am using.... dark plate, bright plate, etc.... Then I turn it back down until it becomes hard to hear or seems to have gone away totally.... it's generally around 10% to 14% or so at this time. I will solo the track at this point...or the mix buss, depending on the project, and during playback, use the on/off button on the GUI in my Sonar FX bin to A/B the verb in the track. At this point, yes, in solo mode you can hear the verb come on and off mostly due to the ambient change in the track/buss. It's usually very subtle. With the track in the mix, the change is not apparent, BUT... the reverb is still there. It's this same window with the percentage that I will rely upon if I need to come back to reduce the verb levels later due to the cumulative effect of other verbs in the chain. Many things in the mixing world are exactly like this.... including layering of lead and harmony vocals for doubling/fattening, and especially when dealing with the higher frequencies in EQ. These things may not be solidly evident in a mix, but they certainly make a difference in what the final mix sounds like. It's the little things that count. As people begin to grasp this concept, their mixing begins to improve. Details matter.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,069
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,069 |
I certainly agree that details matter. And for nearly 50 years (off and on) I've struggled with what constitutes the "right" amount of reverb from live gigs to occasional studio settings. But if we have a finished mix and are satisfied with it and ready to master I still don't understand how adding reverb during mastering and then turning it down below the JND* can add any value. Now during the mix process I can grasp how reverb on a track might be turned down to an imperceptible level per that track and yet influence the sound of the mix (as it interacts with other tracks).
*"just noticeable difference" as we used say back in the research days
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809 |
if we have a finished mix and are satisfied with it and ready to master I still don't understand how adding reverb during mastering and then turning it down below the JND* can add any value. Now during the mix process I can grasp how reverb on a track might be turned down to an imperceptible level per that track and yet influence the sound of the mix (as it interacts with other tracks).
In my process, I actually start heading towards the final mix right from the start. So I do not "finish a mix" and then master it and add reverb. I'm working toward the final mastered mix from the very beginning of the first track. I'm adding and deleting things and changing the levels as I go along. So when I reach the end, everything is in place and the project is ready to export "as is". Many folks mix first to a raw wave and then master/sweeten the mix. Not me. But I do agree... if the mix is finished and sounds good and all that's left is to master or sweeten.... there's no significant purpose or gain by adding a verb that you can't hear. At that point, the gain will be through compression and EQ, and that's about the extent of the plugs one needs to use on a finished mix.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
If I am adding reverb to the master buss and I hear reverb then I have added too much. Same philosophy with the high pass filter on the low end to get rid of stuff you can't hear but adds unwanted energy as you move along.
If I listen to the wav files with and without the reverb added, I can tell there is a slight difference, but I can't say "Oh, that's reverb".
At the moment I can't tell if it is better or not (or maybe they aren't any different -- ha, ha). I may have to get someone else to A-B them for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,069
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,069 |
I think the conversation just reinforces the truism that all of this is ultimately personal. There are certainly no absolutes. I answered by saying I don't use it in the master bus. And I tried to imply that if I did I would leave it at a level where I could discern it's presence. Now with the new rockabilly RT's I can see a production where I would put it on the master and crank it up.
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 11
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 11 |
You're spot on when you say that generally, if you can 'hear' the reverb, it's too much. ....Generally! There was the 80's, of course.... but that's another story! Nick One Flight Up Recording Studios
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,809 |
It's certainly a matter of taste and at times it's genre and style specific.... Imagine some of Elvis and Buddy Holly's stuff without that characteristic slap back echo/verb sound. It just wouldn't be the same.
There are not absolutes and certainly no right way or wrong way to do it.
On a given dry mix, you can apply reverb to make it sound like the setting is a small intimate club, or a huge stadium show. Totally up to the person mixing what effect they are going for.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2 |
I'm having a problem monitoring 'wet' but recording dry - vocalists might want an effect - but the producer may want to delete and re introduce - looking for the best way to interface this using a DAW and an external soundcard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2 |
Quick way to monitor wet and record dry using a daw a reverb unit and an external interface.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Update to Build 10 of RealBand® 2026 for Windows®!
If you're already using RealBand 2026 for Windows, download build 10 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® users: Build 904 now available!
If you're already using Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, make sure to grab the latest update! Build 904 is now available for download and includes the newest additions and enhancements from our team.
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® users: Build 1237 is now available!
Already a Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows user? Stay up to date and download the build 1237 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.
PowerTracks Pro 2026 for Windows is Here!
PowerTracks 2026 is here—bringing powerful new enhancements designed to make your production workflow faster, smoother, and more intuitive than ever.
The enhanced Mixer now shows Track Type and Instrument icons for instant track recognition, while a new grid option simplifies editing views. Non-floating windows adopt a modern title bar style, replacing the legacy blue bar.
The Master Volume is now applied at the end of the audio chain for consistent levels and full-signal master effects.
Tablature now includes a “Save bends when saving XML” option for improved compatibility with PG Music tools. Plus, you can instantly match all track heights with a simple Ctrl-release after resizing, and Add2 chords from MGU/SGU files are now fully supported... and more!
Get started today—first-time packages start at just $49.
Already using PowerTracks Pro Audio? Upgrade for as little as $29 and enjoy the latest improvements!
Order now!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics86,085
Posts799,949
Members40,030
| |
Most Online44,367
Mar 4th, 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean