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learn about setting up non-GM MIDI sounds and learn about MIDI controls, i.e CCs. MarioD or others can you suggest sites where we can learn about this not just the list of the controllers but examples of application of their use thanks
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The problem with GM is the number of instrument choices even if you have the very best GM sound bank in the world. Example, say you're doing a country tune and you want a nice steel string guitar. Your GM sound bank has one. Count em, one steel string guitar. It also has one electric one jazz and maybe another one. That it. Now that one steel string may be a very good one and it sounds great. But, my Sampletank using the Sonicsynth library has at least 25 different electric guitars to choose from, none which is GM. I've got distortion, amp modeling, one called Dark Prince, another one called Chet something, many different choices.
If you're happy with one good guitar patch great. GM is simple and easy.
As far as cost a decent but not the best, softsynth is about the same as a good hardware module, roughly $500 and there are good and bad points to each.
The biggest plus for software is no desk clutter with midi and audio cables running around plus the big one is fast rendering of your midi tracks to audio. When you look at your "save as" choices one is to render all DXi/VST tracks to audio. A typical 4 minute song will render in 15 seconds to a minute depending on how fast your computer is.
A hardware module can't render. You have to route the audio out from the module back into your computer record it in real time just like the old days with a live band. A 4 minute song takes 4 minutes to record.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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learn about setting up non-GM MIDI sounds and learn about MIDI controls, i.e CCs. MarioD or others can you suggest sites where we can learn about this not just the list of the controllers but examples of application of their use thanks Google/bing Learning MIDI and you will find a ton of information. IMHO you will learn more by looking at the list of controllers and comparing it with your synth's MIDI implementation chart. Note some soft synths don't have one but they do have a learn MIDI function, more on that later. Most but not all synths (by synth I mean hard and soft synths) use CC7 or CC2 for volume with CC11 as a subset of them. However Garritan and possibly others use the mod wheel, CC1, for volume. Others use CC1 for vibrato or filtering. In other words CCs can be left to the discretion of the MFG, thus setting examples may or may not work exactly the same for you depending on your synth. MIDI learn function is a system were you can dedicate any knob. slider or button on your MIDI controller for a function on your synth. For example my keyboard controller has 9 programmable sliders and 8 programmable knobs. I have two knobs dedicated to volume and pan on all of my synths. For my Hammond B3 soft synth (NI's B4II) those sliders are programmed for the synth's drawbars but are programmed for other things in other synths. It's not hard as you can just right click on a soft synths function, select MIDI learn then just move a slider or knob on your controller, then that slider or knob will control that function. You can also program a specific MIDI controller knob or slider to send a dedicated CC. For example one of my keyboard controller's knobs only send CC7, usually volume, while another only sends CC10, almost always pan. Actually these things are harder for me to explain than to it is to do. It is very easy to do and I can show you a lot faster if you were here. The main point is giving you examples may or may not work the same with your synth. I hope I didn't confuse you too much.
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
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Here is my response: PG music has some pretty decent stuff built in to Real Band, like the free Sample Tank synth that comes with it (IK Multimedia) and ye olde Coyote for very basic stuff. Moving beyond that you may want to check out Garritan's sample libraries for piano, orchestra, and Jazz Band. The Garritan Personal Orchestra and Jazz Band samples are great. The Abbey Road Grand is amazing. All compatible with Real Band. Garritan libraries can also be bought in packages on the PG Music site. Google Garritan. If you play the notes yourself, any decent keyboard with a midi out will do, because you are only looking for the keys to drive the software synths, such as the Aria Player. Obviously in this case, you are playing the keys into a midi track in Real Band or another DAW and assigning an instrument patch from Sample Tank, Garritan or another software synth. (Soft synth.) If you are simply taking BIAB generated midi tracks such as strings, you probably still want to run them through a player such as Aria if you want a real piano sound, for example. I use Sonar to produce in, and that comes with a lot of free and excellent built in synths that are probably more than you will ever need, if you also have some classical stuff like Aria. The Session Strings in Sonar are actually very, very nice. The learning curve on all these soft synths can be pretty steep but it is worth it once you figure it out. To start with, why not fool around with Sample Tank in Real Band and get a feel for how it goes? Then check out some of the other synths other folks have recommended, once you know what it is you want the most, orchestral strings, or Motown. Different synths suit different purposes. As a side note, I am finding that is is actually easier to record and edit audio in Real Band than in some other DAWS. I think Real Band gets overlooked or underrated sometimes when actually it is totally awesome for recording a nice clean audio signal, and editing is a snap. I almost never get clipping with Real Band even if I have my amp turned up to 11 and the mic shoved right in front of it. Then once you have really clean audio tracks and Real Tracks you can move them to a DAW like Sonar that has all the fancy production stuff and more soft synths for midi than you will need, probably. The midi export dashboard in Real Band is a dream. Another piece of really sweet programming that doesn't get the praise it deserves. I hope this makes sense. Tell me if it doesn't and I will try and be more specific. It takes a while to learn the ropes with midi and soft synth production. It isn't always easy so if you're frustrated any at all, you're in good company. 
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In a natural progression... most folks start with the basics and them move up the ladder one step at a time as they discover the need for something better.
My progress was along this line, and followed it very closely in this order.
TTS basic synth..learned how midi worked and made music with it.
SFZ sound font player: Sounded better than some, but not all, of the TTS patches
Garritan Personal Orchestra: a nice step up in quality over the GM libraries and fonts.
Miroslav Philharmonic: similar in quality to GPO but had different tonal qualities
Kontakt (actually the Komplete Kollection package): Step up to the big leagues in quality and versatility. Nice quality sounds, and huge libraries and after market products.
East West Silver << this was a free full function limited version. It contained some really nice string sections, but it was limited and simply intended to give you a taste of the full, very expensive, but extremely nice sounding E/W offerings.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Bob (jazzmammal), judging from your last post, I suspect you just never had a good GM synth.
Only one acoustic guitar?
The General MIDI bank on my SD90 has 16 different acoustic guitars for patch 26
It also has 16 different acoustic guitars for patch 25.
Clean Electric? 16 different electrics on patch 26 including Tele, Strat, 335 and others.
GM patch 27 provides 4 jazz guitars and 4 pedal steels including a Hawaiian
16 different muted guitars (GM patch 30)
12 different distorted guitars (patch 31)
and 8 different harmonics or feedback patches (#32)
All GM patch numbers and it's easy to get to the alternate sounds. You can either twist the knob on the sound module or assign MSB and LSB numbers in the patch assignment dialog box in your sequencer.
So not all GM synths give you one sound per patch number. Like all things synth, it depends on the synth you use.
And as I said before, a couple of nice things about hardware synths are
(1) you can use 16 or 32 at a time without causing any problems with your CPU maxing out
(2) since the sounds are stored in ROM instead of each note being created by the CPU, in a good synth, the sounds can be much more complex
(3) since there is virtually no latency [about 5ms] you can mix and match as many synths as you want, picking the best sounds for the particular song
(4) when your computer OS upgrades or if you decide to switch platforms or even use them with a tablet, keyboard or other computer, they still work and will probably work for decades to come.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Ok, didn't know that. I see it's been discontinued so I can't find the original price but Amazon has one for $875. It looks like that's a very high end module.
I stopped using my hardware for a variety of reasons. I think my comment is still correct for all the softsynths.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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As always - thank you all for your informative responses. I like to throw these open-ended questions out to learn what I don't know I don't know...and I did learn some of those things for sure.
Sometimes - I jot down a few of the comments - and when I see a sale or something, just buy one of the new largely recommended toys listed. I'm not nearly serious enough about my recording (hek, I really don't do much recording at all) - but I LOVE knowing what's out there and tinkering with some of it.
Yes - this sure is an expensive hobby for someone that likes to discover and tinker rather than professionally record his own music, but - as Popeye says "I am what I am"...
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I'm not nearly serious enough about my recording (hek, I really don't do much recording at all) I have found Recording is one of the best ways to improve your playing
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit M4 pro Mac mini 1tb HD 24GB mem casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
casio wk-7500
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Bob, it's true that a high end synth costs a few bucks, but when you consider that by the time you collect a few soft synths you are going to spend that much anyway, and add the longevity of a hardware synth, you end up saving money.
When the OS changes, even 30 years later, your hardware synth will still work. Even after USB changes to whatever is next your hardware synth will still work.
And you can pick up a Roland XV-2020 for around $200 and still have a few banks of sounds. It's a nice sounding module as well.
And unlike Real Tracks, the synths will play whatever you create.
I see we have two different approaches here, and as I've always said, there is more than one right way to make music.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I'm not nearly serious enough about my recording (hek, I really don't do much recording at all) I have found Recording is one of the best ways to improve your playing ABSOLUTELY 100% right on target. Like singing, you can sing or play along with the radio and imagine you are as good as the artist on the record, but when it's just your singing and playing coming out of the speakers, man I'll tell you what, reality sets in might fast....and it's brutal at times. That's what makes karaoke so hilarious. You get folks who have sung along with their favorite songs and artists and suddenly, it's just them..... Think you can sing, play or have good tone? Record it, listen to and and make adjustments, practice, develop your techniques accordingly. Recording is in your face honest. It doesn't lie. But it can also be your best friend towards improving your chops quickly. Melodyne, not for it's ability to correct the issues, but for it's ability to SHOW you the issues, is one of the better tools for working on your vocals.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Melodyne, not for it's ability to correct the issues, but for it's ability to SHOW you the issues...
Very well said! 
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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I wholeheartedly agree.
Recording yourself is a great practice tool.
It doesn't have to be studio quality, just good enough to show you the places where need to work on.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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To GuitarHacker's point about Melodyne - are there any entry-level articles to teach me how to use it to improve my vocals ? Also - what's the best price I will get it if I keep my eyes open (and which vendor).
Also - to the point about the brutal discovery of how one actually sounds...I've experienced this way too many times...it is truly eye opening to record yourself and only yourself performing a song.
The voice always sounds different to your own ears than other peoples - mine sounding so bad to my own ears I pretty much gave up on singing (in front of people, that is ; ) I'm not sure my voice could be pleasant enough to others to warrant all the singing practice it would take to make me feel like I can actually deliver a fair to good performance best utilizing my God-given abilities.
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People don't care about your voice, they care about expression. Work on that. Examples of multi-million sales singers with bad voices: Bob Dylan, Stevie Nicks, John Lennon, Dr. John, and the list goes on and on and on. If you can express yourself well, and in a manner that resonates with the audience, it doesn't matter how bad the tone of your voice is. Working on the fundamentals of singing can improve your voice, which will make it sound better to yourself, and will also give you enough control to be able to express yourself better and therefore connect with the audience. Tone is over rated. Of course, it's important to musicians, and it should be, but we listen with musician's ears, the general public does not. Just think of all the bad sounding popular formats people listen to when there are or have been better alternatives. 45rpm records, cassette tapes, 8 track tapes, mp3s, and on walk things or phones with tinny ear buds. And what is good tone anyway? Since there are a lot of guitarists on this forum I'll take one example. Answer me this, who's tone is better? Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Slash, Carlos Santana, Jim Hall, Eric Gale, Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Zakk Wylde, Terry Kath, Dimebag, Johnny A, John Abercrombie, T-Bone Walker, Scotty Moore, Eddie Van Halen, Kieth Richards, Brian Setzer????? IMHO in order of importance what you need is - Expressiveness - this is what connects to the audience
- Technique - this is what you need to be able to get your expression from your soul to the ears of the listener
- Tone - least important of all, but definitely a plus if you have it so don't ignore that, but work on the others more
Back to the original question, I still recommend the Ketron SD2. But since I haven't heard all the synths I'd like to, there might be a better one out there that I just haven't had the pleasure of playing with. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Thanks for the encouraging words Bob...very inspiring.
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to enhance what Bob Norton says:
Tone is THE property to make YOU sound unique.
The better YOU are, the better the chance you might be copied.
(There are many sound-a-likes around, but they never came close to Elvis, Garth Brooks, Frank Sinatra... For some reason, some singers have a quality to outsing their copies on the long run.)
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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to enhance what Bob Norton says:
Tone is THE property to make YOU sound unique.
The better YOU are, the better the chance you might be copied.
(There are many sound-a-likes around, but they never came close to Elvis, Garth Brooks, Frank Sinatra... For some reason, some singers have a quality to outsing their copies on the long run.) How true! Back 'in the day' many wanted to sound like Elvis, and a few came close in tone. But they never quite got Elvis' expression. And those that finally came close came with too little and too late. I suppose a number of people could cover the Dr. John gravel voice, but I doubt that they could copy his personal expression too. The Knickerbockers released a song "Lies" that sounded quite a bit like The Beatles, and they did an excellent job at it as well, but they would never be as big as The Beatles. Your voice is unique, and your expression should be the sum total of all who influenced you plus your own instincts all blended into something that comes out unique. You don't have to be a copy of someone else unless you want to be in a "Tribute Band". Of course having a great voice helps, but it's the expression that counts. So don't sell yourself short by saying you have a bad voice. Take at least fundamental vocal technique lessons, breath support, projection, pronunciation, etc. and then sing, sing, sing. Every day, out loud, holding nothing back. The muscles need to be toned. I had days when I thought I could never be a singer. I started on easy songs and in time I got to be a very good singer. I'll never be an Elvis, Tom Jones or Sinatra, I don't have that fine of an instrument. But I am expressive, have good control of my voice, and the audience loves it. Charlie Parker (a great, innovative sax player of the bebop days) had a drug problem (not recommended) and had his horn in pawn shops from time to time. He would play loaners, or el-cheapo horns to gig, and even played with a plastic sax. Nobody cared because out of the horn came Charlie Parker's expression. Just remember, voice is an instrument and it requires learning the fundamentals and practice to get decent. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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