Since I'm a newbie to RB I have a lot of questions - I hope I'm not getting on your nerves with my almost daily postings. At least I promise that before bringing up issues here I will search back postings, read the manual and ask Google!
Here are my 2 questions about volume automation:
1. Am I right: You can copy the volume tracks of MIDI files, but can't copy the volume track of one audio track to another audio track?
2. I always have horn sections in my songs, which I convert to audio files after the MIDI tracks are OK. To make the section sound exactly like I want it to, I have to find a very exact place for each instrument volumewise and of course panwise (can I use that word?). Mostly changing the volume by a very small value makes the difference. After that I'd like to throw in some (de-)crescendi. If I edit the volume track of each instrument accordingly I cannot change the volume later on with the mixdown.
If I automate volume changes by recording the respective fader moves one by one I will lose 'my' sound, because in order to get a crescendo I'll have to pull the fader almost completely down to zero and then up again - that way it's almost impossible to bring it back to the exact value it had before.
Of course I could leave the horn tracks untouched after editing their volume tracks and change only the other instruments to make them fit in, but that is pretty limiting, too.
The solution would be recording the fader moves of the subgroup I combine all horns in. But I do understand that this is not possible, because subgroups have no tracks on their own.
I am sure that lots of folks work with horn (or string) sections - how do you get along with that problem - are there any workarounds...?
It appears few people are using RealBand as you describe. My thought is you might want to try multiple passes for each track.
During pass one the concentration might be on acquiring the best, most realistic midi to audio conversion possible. What does "best" mean in this example? Maybe it means an audio output with dynamics similar to what a human can produce. Maybe it means limited dynamic range like recording an instrument with a compressor insert on the track. It most likely will mean taking care of broad volume levels in midi. You'll have to define "best" but the goal is the best midi to audio conversion you can obtain so you don't have to do all the mixing in the audio domain. I'm thinking each midi instrument audio track should be a mono track since it is common to have mono instrument tracks. Even major tracks such as main vocal, lead guitar or sax solo typically begins life as a recorded audio track.
Once everything is rendered to audio then you can treat the song project as all audio. With most or all mono audio tracks, center all panning so you can work on volume levels and frequency separation. Get the best sounding mono mix you can. Once you have a good mono mix, then pan and start adding effects.
Yep.... Real Band is a very basic DAW and as such, does not have the full functionality one expects in a DAW.
I would suggest that you look into buying something like Cakewalk's Music Creator 7 for $20 from their website or what ever other DAW you might prefer. I use Sonar, also by Cakewalk and a few steps up from the MC series. I started with the MC series so I have no doubts it will do what you need.
I write my songs in Band in a Box and then use Real Band to render the audio tracks. I export those tracks one at a time into Sonar. So essentially, I am using 3 different programs to do what I do. You will find that many others also use a separate DAW to do their final mixing. It's also where I add vocals and my live played instruments and other synths.
In Sonar, I can easily add the volume and panning envelopes I need to control the sound of the instrument in the track. Sonar's envelopes are easily controlled by inserting nodes manually or it will follow "writing automation" in real time. Essentially, turn write automation on and during the playback it will record the fader and knob movements you make. I don't like doing it that way because it's messy ( one fader movement can easy deposit 20 to 30 nodes into the envelope) and not very accurate. I find I get the best control by surgically inserting the nodes exactly where I want them. Fades in and out are very easy to accomplish and by dragging the track vertically larger, you can get precise dB settings on those nodes.
The photo above is a typical look at a project I do in Sonar. Notice the bright yellow lines with dots.... those are the volume envelopes and the nodes. Panning envelopes are red where they are used. Whichever mode you are in is highlighted. This is volume mode.
By zooming in on the track, I can place my envelopes surgically to get one note in one track and the very next node in the track above it to make one piano fill.(<< That was done in a different song.) I can also easily fade instruments in or out as you can see in the photo.
NOTE: Always take your tracks into the DAW for mixing as full uneffected, dry tracks. Don't do any fades or edits in BB/RB. The edits that you "burn" to the tracks upon export from BB/RB become permanent and that's not the best option. Leave the tracks 100% complete and dry, and you can always do your edits in the DAW and those things are easily changed by adjusting the envelopes.
With a good, fully functional DAW, you will be able to do everything you are asking for, and do it easily.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
In Sonar, I can easily add the volume and panning envelopes I need to control the sound of the instrument in the track. Sonar's envelopes are easily controlled by inserting nodes manually or it will follow "writing automation" in real time.
Volume envelopes are also offered in RealBand, and have been since 2014 (I believe). Here's the PG Music tutorial:
I have worked in lots of other DAWs in the past (including MC7, as Guitarhacker suggested). However, I am currently working entirely in Realband to really wrap my brain around all that it has to offer. So far, I have found that it does most everything as other DAWs if I just do a little digging to find it.
So far, I have found that it does most everything as other DAWs if I just do a little digging to find it.
Yep, people just don't take time to learn it. Regarding original post; I believe you can indeed cut/copy just volume nodes for audio or MIDI. Don't have it open right now to verify. And yes it has automation, though some (who are used to other DAWs) feel it could be improved.
OK, opened it for image below. Highlight section of audio, then click Copy. Check what you want, uncheck what you don't.
Last edited by rharv; 02/11/1601:58 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
This is the major point about RB that gets missed ALL THE TIME. RB does much more than people realize.
Sometimes when someone becomes part of the PG family they are already familiar with and invested a lot of time and money in another DAW so they don't want to switch and I can't blame them. Just don't make assumptions that RB can't do something without testing it out first. I just made that mistake about a hardware synth with a GM soundbank and Notes corrected me. This stuff is tricky.
The thing to keep in mind for people reading this is if you already have a $4-600 big name DAW great. For that price it better do stuff that RB can't or if it can it does it better, easier with prettier looks, whatever.
BUT, if you don't already have another DAW and you're thinking you might need one, FULLY check out what RB can do FIRST. Depending on what your needs are it could easily be all you need.
although I don't have too much experience with other DAWs that's exactly my impression so far: RB is much more powerful than it seems to be at first glance, you just have to find out. And I really do prefer it's clear GUI to that of other DAWs, OK, that's a matter of personal taste.
Of course there seem to be a few things lacking, but I am convinced that you can get stunning results with it. And then there's this great forum with so much helpfulness and, of course, the wishlist.
Yes, you are perfectly right: With the X-mas special I paid less than 200 bucks for the UltraPlusPak with thousands of MIDI and RealTrack styles, which summed up to about 90 GB I believe - if that's not value for money...
I just got the forum title 'Enthusiast' and that's exactly what I've become during tbe last six weeks!
thanks a lot for taking the time for your elaborate replies.
I read your suggestions and descriptions very carefully - it's' really interesting to get to know the different approaches you have. But I am sure that I will benefit from either one; in fact I already tried some of the things you mentioned in order to find out what suits me best.
Inspired by JimFogle's opinion I meanwhile figured out how I can solve my "crescendo problem': Since these crescendi will not be changed once I threw them in, I can prepare the volume track of one horn MIDI track first, then copy its nodes to the other horn MIDI tracks and render the four horn section tracks (be it EQed like JimFogles wrote or' dry' like Guitarhacker prefers it) afterwards. Either way I can change their final volumes during the mixdown to any value without having to take care of the crescendi.
I just tried it once again - the volume track of an audio track can only be copied when you copy the whole track including the audio part (thus by checking "Events" and "Nodes"). Copying solely the volume track (by checking just "Nodes") doesn't work with me...
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