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I think I always thought production was mixing. It seems to be more then that. any tips on how to go about learning it?
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I think I always thought production was mixing. It seems to be more then that. any tips on how to go about learning it? It depends who you talk to to some extent and the type/style of music. Sometimes more is more, sometimes less is more. I feel production, to a large extent, is the practice of that concept. An example of what I mean is an artist like Tom Petty. Some songs have "a lot" going on, some...not as much. HOWEVER...both of the aforementioned are produced extremely well. I believe with his production, there is never anything that they didn't want to be in the song. If you hear it, it's on on purpose...I would even go so are as to say absolutely deliberate. I'm not looking to necessarily get into too much of discussion of it on the forum. I've had ideas run down here enough to not want to at this point. I've gone the route of PM's. That being said, PM me if you are really interested. I haven't been on here much lately. I check in and that's about it. I would be glad to help where I can! Others, I'm sure, will be glad to help as well. There are some VERY knowledgeable people here! I also think you would be hard pressed to find a more willing to help bunch. Do you have any examples of artists or genre of music or specific songs? I can give you a tip, that I feel, helps A LOT!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I have 45 years experience in the studio, but the major way I thoroughly learned production was to hire a producer and learn from what he did.
Among many other things he arranged the recording sessions, decided what musicians were needed and hired the musicians, hired the arranger, booked the studio, booked the food at the sessions(!), and directed the sessions. He worked with me before every step to get my approval of all artistic concepts, but once we had a plan, I did not want to do any production work, just concentrate on performing, and thus he made me feel at ease (probably the single most important step). He also assisted with post-production work on mixing, mastering and marketing.
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To me, production means: Not only the mixing, that's certainly a part of it, but also the planning and arranging that goes into the project BEFORE the tracks are laid down. It involves deciding what instrument you're going to use to do fills in the first verse, the second verse, are you going to swap back and forth between 2 instruments or just use one instrument, and where and what instrument for the solo. Any FX used such as type of reverb or is it going to use an echo or chorus/flanger in there too? Will there be a building from a simple acoustic base to a full blown 7 piece band with backup singers, or will there be breaks and a return back to the acoustic beginning at the end?
Essentially, it's all the planning and details, All of the things that make the song interesting is what I call the production of the song. Similar to the arrangement but the arrangement is primarily focused on the structure of the song.... verse chorus, is there a bridge or not and the intro and outtro.... Production is the big picture.
I enjoy the production part of the job probably the best...well aside from the writing..... or the recording... or the playing..... and singing....know what I mean?
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/24/16 09:30 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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then there is live production I think to. I'm getting there is a lot to this. I could tell there were more guitars than what we play and know we need more than what we have if we want to sound fuller. we talk about doing a recording for a cd but think we need to figure some of this out first. don't want the cart before the horse. were 4 guys with day jobs not trying to make it just have fun and sound good. now its figuring what more to do with it. 45 years in the studio is a lot of time. we could start where you did and hire someone to teach us the ropes. we want to get a sound like some of the bro country acts. it's not bach but its fun for us and like chris cagle said the chicks dig it.
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I think I always thought production was mixing. It seems to be more then that. any tips on how to go about learning it? It can be more than mixing, however, parts of production are just so simple with BIAB. If you listen to a few of the styles you like. Just mess around with the levels of each channel. I don't put a lot of reverb on the tracks in BIAB. SO I would suggest lowering anything that is above 25. The drums are already recorded in stereo. Keep that track panned in the center position(0). Here is a simple way to mix. - Solo the Drums, set the level, lower the reverb until the snare sounds snappy. Don't worry if its just a touch of reverb, drums sound best in that environment.
Then add the bass (both tracks solo button) increase the bass level until it blends with the drums but does not overpower them. Don't use reverb on the bass in general it doesn't respond much to reverb effect, and the bass needs to be clear and well defined. Most people add compression to bass, but, compressor plugins can get you in a lot of trouble with peaks and clips. Even if you see a little check box that says no clipping. The wrong compressor/exciter settings are not going to help you mix the bass in properly. Wait until you have mastered mixing to tackle effects on instruments. *BIAB Real Tracks, and Real Drums pretty much sound great if you leave them alone. So concentrate on setting levels. - Next add a rhythm instruments Piano/guitar, set the level so you like what you hear. Is the mix pleasant to your ear. Or is the bass too loud, drums too soft. Experiment with the RAW sounds of several 3 piece bands.
Mix 3 piece Drums, Bass, Piano or Guitar arrangements until you can hear the difference between what your ear likes and what your ears do not like. Everybody's ears are good unless you have suffered some hearing loss. Really nobody has better ears for mixing, just more experience. You can get up to speed in a few months if you start simple and add more difficult mixes.
Now start fiddling around. Turn the bass up too loud then back it off until it sounds right. DO that with the Rhythm instrument. Turn the drums up then adjust the levels of the other 2 instruments. Turn the drums down adjust the other two. Master 3 piece arrangements. Because they will always be in there. "OK sometimes there are no drums but now even bluegrass is adding rhythm instruments" Don't start out mixing a style that does not have drums.
DO THIS WITH A GOOD SET OF HEADPHONES like AKG K240S
I will be happy to add more detail later. My point is if you don't start out right you are not going to be happy in the end. Sometimes LESS is MORE my experience has always been. Don't move that knob away from the center if you don't know what it does.
I apologize if this is way too basic for you DaClark I was hoping I could help some of the beginners with the basics.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Production also includes pattern making. Mixing is a part of that process but a lot of it depends on patience for taste. Biab allows an entire song to be created quickly to practice learning a taste of a particular style. In fact I've been studying the midi patterns by writing out every number there are 78 midi folders and out of numbers I randomly pull one number out and that is the style group I listen to for a week. I also have Cakewalk TTS which sounds much better than Coyote (which I think is crap!! so I can enjoy the midi pieces more. Than I try to locate from Spotify bands that might be related looking at musical notation that I have written out or seen writing out. I should score out the styles, but I haven't done that yet . But I would say this is part of a musical process.
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glad to see there is hope for all of this. Its weird you can go your whole life playing music and not catch this stuff. anyone on this forum a master of how to do this I learn best by listening. Ill try the suggestions and see where it gets me. good stuff.
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Yet again some great advice. Thanks Dga, that was particularly useful as it assumed no real knowledge of mixing. The pros on here make for great reading too. Thanks all.
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then there is live production I think to. I'm getting there is a lot to this. I could tell there were more guitars than what we play and know we need more than what we have if we want to sound fuller. we talk about doing a recording for a cd but think we need to figure some of this out first. don't want the cart before the horse. were 4 guys with day jobs not trying to make it just have fun and sound good. now its figuring what more to do with it. 45 years in the studio is a lot of time. we could start where you did and hire someone to teach us the ropes. we want to get a sound like some of the bro country acts. it's not bach but its fun for us and like chris cagle said the chicks dig it. To do that.... don't hire someone to teach you unless you are hiring Luke Bryant and Chris Cagle, you know, the guys who are actually doing it successfully. Short of that.... yeah, you can't afford them..... get their music and STUDY it.... dig in and find out how they construct songs, what they sing about, the instruments used, the chord progressions they use, where they place their breaks, tempo, key, groove..... study their music, then start writing THAT kind of music. So yeah.... don't hire anyone who doesn't have a Billboard #1 chart topping song. If they can't make it to the top of the charts, then, simply put, they don't know what their doing when it comes to writing modern bro country songs.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/25/16 02:23 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Yet again some great advice. Thanks Dga, that was particularly useful as it assumed no real knowledge of mixing. The pros on here make for great reading too. Thanks all. Lambada, thanks. I'm no pro so the best advice I can give is to someone who is just starting out. I see we have some of the same software and hardware. I have the TCH-Play Acoustic and their Voice Live3 Extreme. I write my background music in BIAB, Mix it, and create a wave file. Its that simple usually takes about a half hour at most. Then I load the mix into my extreme pedal and take MY BAND with me to the show. Mixing 3,and 4 piece backing bands with BIAB for both covers and original songs gives me space to play solo guitar, or the rhythm guitar part live. I've been amazed at how quick this process is, and the quality of the tracks. I'm enjoying the creative process more. Like a breath of fresh air. The Extreme latest firmware Update creates 1, 2, 3, or 4 part vocal harmonies when you stomp a switch. Reading the Key and Chord changes from the Backing Track, its a great sound for a 1 man band.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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then there is live production I think to. I'm getting there is a lot to this. I could tell there were more guitars than what we play and know we need more than what we have if we want to sound fuller. we talk about doing a recording for a cd but think we need to figure some of this out first. don't want the cart before the horse. were 4 guys with day jobs not trying to make it just have fun and sound good. now its figuring what more to do with it. 45 years in the studio is a lot of time. we could start where you did and hire someone to teach us the ropes. we want to get a sound like some of the bro country acts. it's not bach but its fun for us and like chris cagle said the chicks dig it. To do that.... don't hire someone to teach you unless you are hiring Luke Bryant and Chris Cagle, you know, the guys who are actually doing it successfully. Short of that.... yeah, you can't afford them..... get their music and STUDY it.... dig in and find out how they construct songs, what they sing about, the instruments used, the chord progressions they use, where they place their breaks, tempo, key, groove..... study their music, then start writing THAT kind of music. So yeah.... don't hire anyone who doesn't have a Billboard #1 chart topping song. If they can't make it to the top of the charts, then, simply put, they don't know what their doing when it comes to writing modern bro country songs. Right on! I think this is the route to really understanding what is going on in a song. MANY times there is more going on than we would we maybe guess. Also, don't hesitate to ask here. You may get the occasional/UN-original "you know what country and rap is? Crap!" type of response...HOWEVER, you will also get some of the best advice and encouragement you will get! Take note, there are some REALLY willing people here! Let me know if there is anything I can do. I've stayed at arms length for a bit, but if there is interest in the subject, I'm all in!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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methodman,
There is a pretty big difference between Coyote Wavetable and Coyote Forte. Which do you have?
Wavetable is free and Forte is $40. Sometimes the two get confused when referencing.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I read this again and got a bit confused by where this is. I dont get some answers.
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You've received some excellent answers. If there is something unclear, perhaps it's because we don't know what level of understanding you have. Could you tell us more about your skill level and what you are trying to accomplish?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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thanks matt. I think where I went off the rails was coyote. is that a sound or what. the other stuff im gettin but not good at yet. so right that there is great stuff suggested. thanks for helpin all. just a newb here.
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Hi DGA. Just saw your post. I've been away on holiday for a couple of weeks. I was very tempted to get the VL 3 Extreme but I felt I had never used my V 2 properly, so I'm learning to use that at the moment. Also I had the Nova Guitar effects already and an unused Boss looper. I'll wait and see what comes out next at TCH. TCH never give any warning or hints, and I know if I bought the 3 Extreme, the next week they'd bring out a new product! It certainly would have been a lot easier to just plug everything into the VL3, but it has forced me to dig into BIAB a bit more.
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BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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like that. I dont get it. is it another conversation or am i missing what you are saying?
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Ignore the side conversation on Coyote - has really nothing to do with your question. Guitarhacker said to go study different producers' work - there's really nothing better you can do. Someone else early in the thread stated that this role and activity has different meanings for different styles and I would say for different budgets. Here's some homework: 1. Go to your CD or LP or mp3 file collection and pick out 25 of your favorite songs from those recordings. 2. Find out who the producer is on those songs. Also find out if there are mixing credits and engineer credits and arranging credits. 3. Make a table of all 25 songs and who the arranger, engineer, mixer and producer is for each. 4. Very likely, you are going to find some names repeated across columns; maybe not on the same recording, but you will find some common names very likely. 5. Go obtain as many recordings with that name listed as financially feasible. 6. Find magazine and on-line articles about what they say they do to 'produce'. 7. Try one thing that they do from a recording/mixing/arranging standpoint. 8. When you think you've learned that thing, move on to another. You don't have to get expert at it, just get the concept and then move on to something else. 9. Repeat. 10. This is supposed to be fun, if it's not - maybe do something else. For me, it started in the 80s, falling in love with U2's The Unforgettable Fire which introduced me to Brian Eno. Eno has been musician, engineer, producer, collaborator, arranger, etc. on a variety of very diverse recordings but all usually involving reverb-y sound, which I love. Also, go subscribe to TapeOp - it's free and chock full of great articles and interviews with engineers, producers, etc. http://tapeop.com/subscriptions/-Scott
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