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...Motown offered us a deal at 2 cents per record, out of the royalties came inflated recording costs, inflated promotion costs and inflated distribution costs.
Plus they wanted to own our name, be the publishing company for our music (the publisher makes more per record than the artist) and have half the writing credits by adding a name to the copyright who had nothing to do with the song.
Our manager figured we would have to sell a million records before we would break even and not owe Motown money. Motown wouldn't even go for 2.5 cents a record, because they knew that others would do it for 2 or less. You've talked about this before and so have I because I have a similar experience in 1976. I've often wondered though if we had accepted that deal. Sure, for a good 20 years we would have gotten totally screwed but still done a ton of recordings and probably big shows, including TV. Still getting screwed though. But....here it comes.... At some point, maybe 10 years ago we would have started doing all these retro shows like the old stars are doing now. Those shows probably pay a whole lot more than all your local duo gigs have paid you over the last 10 years. Total speculation I know but I do wonder about that sometimes. Yes I know, what I'm describing is the tired, old "Play for the exposure, it'll pay off later". Because now you would be booking yourself as Bob Norton formerly with XXXX and XXXX and was on all these gold records. You became moderately famous for creating some killer sax line on whatever record. Even if you were not the front star. Look at all the people now who show up as guest artists with other groups doing all kinds of retro stuff. Gotta be more money and more fun than playing a local yacht club... I don't know man but maybe we still shoulda done it. And back on topic, no the vinyl thing doesn't mean squat in the big picture. Bob
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Vinyl to me is really just a fad. Sure, record sales may be increasing, but like people pointed out, they're only a small percent of the music consumption. In todays world, the average listen doesn't really care about how they listen to their music, they just want to listen. The average person is ok with listen to music on crappy laptop speakers, cheep earbuds plugged into their cellphone, or through bluetooth speakers, because to them, it's all about a good beat, and catchy lyrics. Plus, in the era of downloading and instant gratification, why would you want to go buy an album, if you can listen to it on youtube for free?
Now, on to the point of vinyl being just a fad. Vinyl to me is seen more as something to collect rather than the desired format of musical listening for hipsters. They really just want collect vinyl for the sake of owning tangible media. I don't believe that they really listen to the music, correct me if I'm wrong.
Now, there is a lot of hype that somehow vinyl sound way better then digital thanks to the audiophile community. Vinyl does not sound better than digital at all. When producing a vinyl record you have be extremely cautious about your mix. If you try to add to much bass to a song you could actual make the needle jump and ruin the entire album. You also have a to keep a lot of headroom. With digital, you have tons of headroom to make things as loud as you want, and you do end up with clicks and pops like you do with vinyl, unless you want to add the sounds to it.
Last, I do agree with a lot you how say that there is an experience own vinyl. Taking the time to go to the record store, coming home and deliberately putting forth the effort to listen to the entire album is something that digital can not replace. plus from a collectors point of view, you never know what to expect from a vinyl record.
Last edited by Islansoul; 06/13/16 05:08 PM.
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Michael Jackson got $2.00 a record for Thriller from epic. X 65 million copies.
The top 1 percent of any profession makes 99 percent of the money. Athletes, Politicians, Oil Execs, Pirates, Hedge Fund Managers, Corporations, .......
If the top 1% of the recording artist want to make more money, right now, they will release more vinyl. That's the only way they can do it. Can't do it from streaming contracts, touring, TV, Radio.
Oh wait judging Vocal contests, another way.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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...Motown offered us a deal at 2 cents per record, out of the royalties came inflated recording costs, inflated promotion costs and inflated distribution costs. <...snip...> You've talked about this before and so have I because I have a similar experience in 1976. I've often wondered though if we had accepted that deal. Sure, for a good 20 years we would have gotten totally screwed but still done a ton of recordings and probably big shows, including TV. Still getting screwed though. But....here it comes....<...snip...> I don't know man but maybe we still shoulda done it. And back on topic, no the vinyl thing doesn't mean squat in the big picture. Bob I agree. I thought about that myself. Except for the fact that Motown would have owned the name. They would have hired different people to play our songs and pretend they were us, like what has been done with Earth, Wind & Fire and so many other groups. At the time, there were a half dozen "Four Tops" touring the country at the same time. Prince and John Fogarty had to sue the record companies to use their own given name. Fortunately they had made enough money to afford that suit. But then, I could have toured with "Formerly of Rare Earth". But I wouldn't have gotten the big arenas. On the other hand, we would have made money on the concert tour when our records were on the chart, had a great time being the headliner, and when our recording debt to Motown was paid off with ticket sales, they probably would have quit tour promoting us, and owning the name, we couldn't do it ourselves. Back on topic. Vinyl won't help. We listened to low-fi-mono 45RPM records, we listened to very low-fi-cassettes, and we listen to low-fi-mp3s. Why? The average listener doesn't care about the difference (if he/she can even hear it) but prefers convenience. Vinyl is a lot of work. 45min and flip the disk. Clean the record before playing and still get pops and clicks. I'm afraid at this point nothing can save the recording industry (I could be wrong though). And furthermore, it makes no difference to me (except I'm not doing add-a-sax-to-your-track studio work anymore - but that was only a trickle). The -1% of the musicians who made big bucks from records will suffer, the record company 'suits' will suffer, and the songwriters will suffer. The only ones I have any sympathy for are the songwriters. Me? I'll continue playing live music like I always have, and I'll do so as long as there is an audience that wants to hear it. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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[quote=Islansoul<...>Now, there is a lot of hype that somehow vinyl sound way better then digital thanks to the audiophile community. Vinyl does not sound better than digital at all<...> [/quote]
That's a matter of taste. New vinyl sounds truer to the source than CDs. I read an article in a trade from one of the inventors of the CD. At the bandwidth used (which was the best they could do at the time) there are severe quantization errors. Plus the DA converters add high harmonics that were not in the original signal, due to the nature of the pulses, which are square waves.
On the other hand, vinyl wears, high frequencies first, and those pops and clicks are a different kind of distortion.
So it's a matter of which kind of distortion do you prefer.
Notes
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Michael Jackson got $2.00 a record for Thriller from epic. X 65 million copies. If you are lucky enough to be an 'automatic', you can make your deal. The one-hit wonders end up working in gas stations of department stores. Oh wait judging Vocal contests, another way. When I found out American Idol was rigged I wasn't surprised. The entire year was a promotion for the 'winner' who was already decided. His/her competition was rigged, the judges were told how to judge and even what to say (in paraphrase) and the entire show was supposed to make a star that would save the recording industry by getting the people involved. Nothing wrong with that except that it exploited the losers who never had a chance. No, I don't feel sorry for the industry. They did it to themselves. Notes
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Bob, the "high harmonics/square wave" comment is not actually true. Been through the exercise and the theory of how the analog output wave is constructed from the digital audio stream of pulses and I used to think the same thing, but after studying the actual process it actually does not work the way one would think. The impulse response of each individual sample is not a square wave but rather a ringing filter response. When you add all of those ringing filter responses together, you end up with a smooth analog wave form with the intended frequency response. You do not end up with a bunch of high harmonics that are unintended. This has to do with the output anti-aliasing filter technology that has been present for decades.
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That was from one of the inventors of the CD in a trade. I suppose he could have been mis-quoted. Then there are still the "severe quantization errors" caused by the inadequate bit rate of the technology of the time. In any case, it's about picking your distortion, as no recording medium faithfully reproduced the original. My ears tell me that vinyl is warmer and digital is edgier. My ears tell me that my all-time favorite sax player (who I have heard live) Stan Getz sounds more like Stan Getz on LPs and his tone drifts more towards Zoot Sims on CD. After saying all that, I listen on CD because the tone distortion is less annoying than the pops and clicks. But back to the topic. While most people have historically have not cared that much about recording quality, I don't think Vinyl will save the business. After all, not only did we listen to 45rpm records, but 8-track tapes that would sometimes fade out in the middle of the song 'click-click' change tracks and then fade in for the rest of the song (that was definitely a deal-killer for me). Then we had the high frequency starved cassette tape (with his) and the lossy mp3 format. Like many things, dinosaurs, steam locomotives, drive-in movie theaters, MS-DOS, vacuum tube radios, floppy disks, etc., the recording industry is past it's prime and possibly on the way to extinction. If I knew how to save it, I'd go into the consulting business.  Notes
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Then we had the high frequency starved cassette tape Cassettes could have been a lot better had they gone to a speed of 3 3/4 ips, rather than 1 7/8 ips. Several vendors had 90-minute, 100-minute, and 110-minute blank cassettes, so the commercial industry could have easily created 45-minute, 50-minute, and 55-minute recordings at 3 3/4 ips. Alas, water under the bridge.
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Then we had the high frequency starved cassette tape Cassettes could have been a lot better had they gone to a speed of 3 3/4 ips, rather than 1 7/8 ips. Several vendors had 90-minute, 100-minute, and 110-minute blank cassettes, so the commercial industry could have easily created 45-minute, 50-minute, and 55-minute recordings at 3 3/4 ips. Alas, water under the bridge. Tascam Portastudios proved that. Designed to run at a faster speed and record in one direction only. Good quality from VHS Tapes used in quality stereo video recorders for archiving too.
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There was a time...long long ago....in a galaxy far, far away..... When you would cue up your 1/4” tape on your Tascam 2-track tape deck, into a good pre into a McIntosh tube amp and a great pair of speakers....and it was aural heaven! 
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There was a time...long long ago....in a galaxy far, far away..... When you would cue up your 1/4” tape on your Tascam 2-track tape deck, into a good pre into a McIntosh tube amp and a great pair of speakers....and it was aural heaven! Yeah. But going for a jog with it was SUCH an effort...
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Yeah. But going for a jog with it was SUCH an effort... You could jog? My knees are not good so I took the low-impact route and would swim with mine! I was confused for years by what wet vs. dry mix meant.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
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Yeah. But going for a jog with it was SUCH an effort... You could jog? . Keep in mind... Bob said.."..a time...long long ago....in a galaxy far, far away....." AND... this is a thread about "Can vinyl save the record industry?" ...so it's all just fantasy. You wouldn't BELIEVE what I can do in my dreams!!!!!
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The thing is that the general public prefers convenience to high fidelity.
And sorry to say (as a musician), the words are even more important the music.
Musicians care about tone, and perhaps a few audiophiles do too, but 99% of the public does not. To them there is lousy sound and 'good enough' sound. Good enough is the sweet spot.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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