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The PG promotion for BIAB and most of the discussions on this forum leave out one very important reason for the amateur or home musician to use BIAB. It makes beginner attempts at singing or learning to play an instrument sound so much better! That's not the same as saying or showing how you can easily create an accompaniment which is the way BIAB is usually promoted. If you are a songwriter or performer and an accomplished musician or singer you can instincively see the potential of BIAB but if, like me, you have had no exposure nor have any aspirations to be a performer/songwriter and simply play at home for your own amusement, then most of the benefits of BIAB go straight over your head. Also the program is so compicated that you are not encouraged to give it a try.

I have been using BIAB for about 17 years and, apart from a few parties, play entirely at home for my own and my families benefit. I am a so so keyboard player who plays exclusively from sheet music - after 60 years of playing I
have been unable to memorize a single song. When I first tried BIAB about 18 years ago I was immediately thrilled how much better my playing sounded with an accompaniment. More importantly, and this is the key point, those songs which I hardly ever played because they were too difficult for me were now playable because I could simplify how I played and let BIAB do the talking. I had several songs that languished in the back of the cupboard for years because they were too difficult for me but I now play the melody with one finger at difficult parts of the song. There are so many wonderful RT and Midi styles that it still sounds great! I can even insert a BIAB acoustic piano RT track while playing the melody this way and I know from my "audience" reaction that they think it is me playing one piano. I now have a repertoire of over 700 songs of every genre all with their own BIAB accompanyment and for every one I have the sheet music in a plastic sleeve in a ring binder - there were twenty 2" binders at the last count. I think you can call me a dedicated amateur!!

Unfortunately, it's all very well to promote BIAB on the basis of how much better it makes your playing sound but many beginners or confirmed amateurs will take one look at BIAB and roll their eyes - it is way too complicated and requires too much appreciation of computer music terminology and techniques. Yes, I know you can ignore 95% of the program and just enter chords in the chord sheet but it's hard for a beginner to appreciate the potential with the rest of the program looming over you. BTW I am NOT talking about the design of the GUI, that is a different subject entirely. What is really needed is a simpler version of the program – BIAB Lite.

Even if this never happens, the promotion of BIAB must start emphasising the creation of accompanyment for COVER songs since this is the approach most beginners will take long before thinking about songwriting. Regardless of their chosen instrument and especially for singers, don't most people start by entering the chords for cover songs? Then why do PG seem almost coy about emphasing using their product for cover songs?

I just had a look at the first PG video for BIAB called "Making A Song In Band-In-A-Box" The video dives straight into entering chord sequences in the chord sheet but what is a chord sequence and which one would you choose? Remember the video is #1 in the "Beginner" list. Surely most beginners would want to be told where to get chord sequences for songs they like so that they can immediately create backing tracks for their favourite songs and produce a great cover to impress themselves and their friends? Maybe I am the exception and most users will not want to produce hundreds of BIAB files for cover songs but PG needs to keep in touch with the needs of beginners.

Tony

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Hi Tony.

I agree with you 100%. Playing covers was how I got started in music and how I will continue until I am 93.

I wrote a blog post about this very topic a couple of weeks ago and have been noticing how many hits it gets from google search engine on an ongoing basis.

6 Simple steps for making cool backing tracks for cover songs using Band in a Box

I originally bought BIAB to be able to make backing tracks for my original songs but have found it superb for cover songs.


LyricLab – Where words become music https://www.lyriclab.net/
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Hmmmm....I'm not so sure it's all that complex. BiaB can be enjoyed from many different skill levels - right out of the box smile Janice and I have played only at home for the last decade. What BiaB allows us to do is explore genres that we listened to for years but never actually played. Within a few hours of installing BiaB we were to to create our first production. Granted we have progressed over the last five years with a DAW and an array of plugins but some of our first efforts still sound pretty decent to me. We were rhythm players for years in a band...competent but miles from being talented soloists, etc. But with BiaB and a little effort you suddenly have world class musicians at your bidding. BiaB is a very powerful program capable of meeting many user objectives. With us it was a mater of deciding what we wanted to do and then focusing on learning specifically how to accomplish that with BiaB. I would think any beginner could enter a chord structure, throw a style at it and have fun playing along and or singing along. And for covers google can quickly lead one to the chords if needed.

My ole guy 2 centavos worth.

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Tony,

I agree with many of the things you have said including the idea that a Band-in-a-Box lite has a place and would be successful. Should you decide to make a request for BiaB lite in the wishlist part of the forum I'll give the idea a +1 as soon as I see it posted.

Lets assume for a moment BiaB Lite is released as a product and the product is promoted as a beginner's tool to create cover songs. The next question is what accessories do you include with the program?

Presently PG Music offers five packages. All five packages include the identical Band-in-a-Box software application but have different accessory groups. Each package is based on the premise of the more you pay the more accessories you receive.

Many beginners purchase the Pro and Mega Paks to start with because they are the lowest price packages. They want to try before they sink a lot of money into something they may not use that much. However, these packages also have the least amount of accessories. Beginners do not completely understand how Band-in-a-Box works so there is no way for them to realize how dependent the program relies on accessories to create the large variety of backing tracks. Beginners likely gain an appreciation for what the program is capable of delivering but, at the same time, quickly become frustrated with the limited amount of accessories available to create a variety of songs. I believe it is at this stage that many potential users either learn as much as they can about how to use the program to kill time until they can afford to upgrade to the UltraPlus, Everything or Audiophile Paks or abandon the program.

In my mind PG Music would need to offer multiple Lite editions where each would have the same Lite program but include genre specific accessory materials.


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I agree with Bud. I don't see the need for a light version and especially not a whole bunch of lite versions with different accessories. A person can go as deep as they want with BIAB whether it's covers or writing songs or learning to play. Even in a lite version they're still going to have to type chords in. And for covers - between tabs, song books, sheet music, midi files and .sgu files readily available - it's really not that hard to get started.

I played rhythm guitar and piano by ear and hadn't played in years when I got BIAB. I also had really limited experience with computers so if I could do it - anybody can. I haven't scratched the surface of all that BIAB can do. And I really like knowing if I want to take the time to learn more BIAB is right there waiting to assist. That's probably why it's used by so many teachers.

Also, I recall several years back there was a joint product between BIAB and I don't remember who now but anyway it was shipped with some other products like pedals or something and I think could also be had on it's own - seems like it was with windows somehow.... It came with a very limited number of backing tracks. Don't remember now what it was called but lite would describe it.

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Why is it that the people who have the skill or ability to become comfortable with complex software always assume that since they were able to do it then it should be the same for everyone? It’s almost as if they look on it as a right of passage – I did it therefore you should be able to do the same . I have seen this attitude so many times with my various hobbies and pastimes – ham radio, photography and now music.

Can you imagine how few people would ever attempt to do simple photo manipulations that everyone takes for granted, like cropping or simple color enhancement etc if the only program available was Photoshop? Yes, Photoshop does these things and vastly more but the cost and complexity would put most people off from trying. Then all the experienced Photoshop users would chime in with “it’s simple really, just try harder and Photoshop is really quite easy to use”

Sundance said “ I played rhythm guitar and piano by ear ” which means he is overqualifed to understand the needs of the beginner musician. For example, I am talking about the beginner keyboard player who has no ear and no computer music experience but can pick out the melody line with one finger from sheet music. I have demonstrated to people what BIAB can do if you type in the chords shown on the sheet and chose a style and they are blown away by the results. Then they look at the GUI and complex menus and finally ask the price and seem to lose interest. It’s no good saying “don’t worry, you can concentrate on the simple stuff, the rest will come later” – Remember Photoshop.

Tony

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Tony, very good points and analogy! Most photographers that I know start with the software that comes with the camera then moves up. That is what I did. Now I use Corel PhotoShop Pro and On 1 Ten Photo, they do almost as much as PhotoShop but at a much cheaper cost.

I think if PGMusic comes out with a Lite version it should only include chord input, style picker, RDs and RTs. Forget everything else just let the beginner put in chords, pick a style and play/practice. In other words the KIS method, i.e. Keep It Simple.

YMMV


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Hey Tony,

I've always thought of BIAB as "wide and deep." As a programmer and a techie, I rather enjoy the fact that I only used about 10% of the program, if that, and there is so much more to explore. But I'm sure not everyone looks at it that way. I've tried for years to get my guitar students and other songwriters to give it a try and I am always so surprised when they just want to continue down their own path. Maybe there really is an intimidation factor.

However, complexity in the software universe is pretty much a given if the software has any significant capability. I know I've looked at apps like Photoshop and thought "What the hell! How am I EVER gonna be productive with this?" Musically it's the same way I felt when I bought my first pedal steel guitar. "Goodness gracious...what are all these strings, pedals, and knee levers for...I'll never be able to do this!" If you're not up for the struggle, you sink like a stone in an angry sea of details.

Instead of a BIAB lite, perhaps a really GREAT tutorial on using BIAB from the novice perspective would be the answer. Make it simple, simple, simple. Experienced folks scoff at newbies sometimes, but as a music teacher I'm reminded regularly that starting from scratch is hard. Sometimes you have to REALLY go slow with folks.

Is there a "Band-in-a-Box for Dummies" book yet? Now there's an idea.

Good post. Tony. Got us all thinking now.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Buford; 11/24/16 05:24 AM.
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I agree with Tony's thinking here, although I think his statement "BTW I am NOT talking about the design of the GUI" might be revisited.

Perhaps a "BIAB Lite" could be approached this way: why not include all the bells and whistles that come in (say) the MegaPAK, but just make available a stripped down interface that includes only the barest essentials to begin with, but could later be enhanced by the user with subsequent menus/dropdowns/tool bars as the user becomes more familiar with the program.

I too have introduced amateur musicians to the wonders of BIAB, only to have them come back later with the "this is too complicated, can't I just use some of yours" argument.

And an updated Help File wouldn't hurt either <grin>.

LLOYD S

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BASIC BAND IN A BOX INSTRUCTIONS: A 10 STEP COURSE

Here is my suggestion for How to Learn Band in a Box if you are non-musician or basic beginner.

1.) Open Band in a Box.

2.) Choose a Style from 1 of the 3,000 or so.

3.) Choose load song demo and hit ok.

4.) Look at the demo chart that will appear, hit play and see what happens between verse and chorus. Realize there are thousands of other styles you can apply to this chord progression. Check a few out. See what makes the chord progressions cool in these demos. Study how it all works. It is the equivalent of a $80,000 Masters in Music degree except it is free.

5.) Go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon and buy the 500 page telephone book of classic songs (Fake Book.) I think it is called the "White Pages" or something like that. Avoid guitar tabs on the Internet if you aren't sure of yourself because they don't tell you where the chords go. There are like 10 of these books and they are cheap. Check it out. Better than smashing yourself in the head with a hammer trying to figure out chords.

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Tab-White-Pages-Vol/dp/0634026119


6.) Go home and type in those chords exactly as you see them into Band in a box. For example, manual entry of C will put a C chord on beat one. Hit comma and it lets you put a chord on beat two. Ditto for Beats 3 and 4. In other words, the chord entry measure box defaults to beats 1 and 3 in 4/4 time when you hit enter. Hitting comma first puts the chord on off beats for push time. The Rolling Stones made a great career out of changing chords on the fourth beat.

7.) Pick a style you like.

8.) Hit generate.

9.) Sing along.

10.) See attached screenshot. Go to Chord Builder and select song form dialogue. Learn how to use it and master it.

Someone at PG Music should win the Nobel Prize for Inventing Song Form Dialogue. It will be your best friend for the rest of your life. Say you have a 4 bar intro. In slot A type 1 and 4. If you have an 8 bar verse type 5 and 8 in Slot B. If you have an 8 bar chorus type 13 and 8 in slot C. Then enter song from ABCBCBC if you have an intro and 3 verses and choruses. See screenshot.

You are done. Hit ok. Band in a Box takes care of the the rest.

Be Brave Young Padawan. Learned well you have.

Live Long and Make Music.

smile





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Song Form Dialog.png (198.84 KB, 92 downloads)
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with regard to workflow


it's not perfect issues from KVR

the other parts of the tutorial


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I read with interest David Snyder's "10 Step Course". From my perspective, that's more for someone who already knows a considerable amount about music. If Tony's original premise is indeed for a "beginner", then step 2.) in David's course is already going to be a problem.

How do you choose a style from 3000 or so. For a beginner, what is a "style" anyway. Many will consider it to be (say) "in the style of Mel Torme" or "in the style of the Beatles". The BIAB styles list is mind boggling if you're just trying to find something "familiar".

Even the 24 Built-in Styles (where do you find that list anyway?) does not give beginners much of a clue as to which one to pick, if they are unfamiliar with basic concepts.

Let's take an example.
Say a beginner knows the lyrics and melody to Amazing Grace, and just wants BIAB to provide the accompaniment. How would David's 10 Step Course be of help?

I still say a BIAB LITE, without the baffling array of options on the opening screen is in order. I have another thought on the matter, which I'll leave for a future post.

LLOYD S

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I think you people are onto something, and I posted another thread here.

Along with a lesson on Amazing Grace.

In short, I think there could be/should be an entirely new Thread on the Forum Beginners where simple lessons could be posted and mentors can help.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=377465#Post377465

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Originally Posted By: Tony Wright
It is way too complicated and requires too much appreciation of computer music terminology and techniques.


I found that comment confusing. "Complicated" and "Computer music terminology"?

Nothing in life is made for people who no native intelligence, and in 2016 everybody should know at least basic basics on a computer. "File", "import".... seriously? How much easier can it be? People with no musical knowledge and no skills whatsoever can have BIAB play music for them just by downloading a MIDI file and importing it. While I am acutely aware (after years at help desk jobs dealing with largely an uninitiated public) that many people sit at a computer and think it is as complicated as flying the space shuttle, but geeze, what a PERFECT opportunity for personal growth. If computers intimidate someone, step one should be taking a 101 level course at a local community college.

I remember how often people would come up to me at gigs and say "Man I wish I could play keyboards like you!" My reply was always the same. "Why can't you? I didn't come from the womb knowing how to do this. Take lessons and learn how to play." The same concept applies here. Rather than saying "It's too complicated", dig in your heels and put in the time and repetitions. You can learn how to do anything you want to learn. Welding, woodworking, plumbing, music, painting, sculpting... anything you want to do, you can do IF you are willing to pay the dues. And there is the problem. I see a good dozen or so people on here who want to buy BIAB and be playing gigs the next day for large dollars, with no music skills at all. You have to know music SOMEWHAT to play music. There is no fast forward button and music can't be microwaved. It takes time. Each individual has control over how long it takes. I was fortunate to know by age 5 that I wanted to play music, and I have now been at it for 60 years. When I was that young there were people who were old to me then taking piano lessons. (Now I realize those "old" people were only 40-ish.) I just finished charting out a song this morning that has a diminished chord, an augmented, and a minor 7 flat 5. That is a foreign language to someone who does not know music. To most of the long time users here, they know exactly what that means. And those long time users here were all, at one point, complete novices. We all were.

I make people mad all the time when I say what I am about to say here.

"Stop saying 'I wish I could do....' and start learning how to do." School ends at some point in life. Education never stops. MIDI was new to all of us at one point. We learned. Mozart at one time knew nothing. And they made a movie about him!!!

So, more on topic, and directed mainly to the beginners, BIAB is a tool, not an end result. Learn about music basics (time signatures, chord relationships, reading sheet music...) and it will all fall together. One quarter of fundamentals at a community college will start you in the right direction.

Last edited by eddie1261; 11/27/16 09:16 AM.
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In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

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New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!

We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!

If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!

Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins

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