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Why we let people exploit us is the mystery to me.- Open mic nights - the owner/management gets paid, the bartenders get paid, the wait staff gets paid, the janitors get paid and the musician works for free, plus he/she even brings friends and family in to make more money for the people who are getting paid
- Playing anywhere for 'exposure' - same as above
- Bad deals with record companies and streaming companies - similar to above
If you want to play for free, there is nothing wrong with that. Find a charity you like, play in a public park, a neighbor's house, a party, or any other non-commercial place you want. But if it's a business and the management and staff are getting paid, don't play for free, you are only being exploited. This old argument seems to resurface around here from time to time. And the point about playing open mics is just wrong!  Open mics are a way for venues to try and make a little profit on nights when no one is coming in to drink. I have attended and performed at many and they are generally poorly attended with the performers, and maybe a friend or two each, making up the entire "audience". And most of the performers tend to be amateurs who are testing the waters or just experiencing the thrill of being on a stage. These are typically folks who will never be paid to perform anyway. In addition you are harming the ability of both yourself and other musicians to make a living by playing music This one always cracks me up! We are all here because we use software to eliminate paid musicians in our live performances, recordings and/or practice sessions! Using your "logic", if you are using BIAB or RB you are putting other musicians out of work! That drummer and bass player and rhythm guitar player and keyboardist who have to work as Walmart greeters could be making a living playing music if you were not using software to eliminate their jobs! And Notes, you actually make money selling tools to help others eliminate paid musicians! My view is playing open mics AND using BIAB are both just fine! And I don't lose any sleep over the poor buggy whip makers who lost their jobs when those newfangled automobiles ruined the horse and buggy industry either. Progress changes things. Ya gotta stay sharp and adapt. Or you might end up in one of those Walmart greeter positions.  Edit: and no offense intended to Walmart greeters! It's a job and if you are working good for you!!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 01/13/17 07:01 AM.
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eddie1261
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Why we let people exploit us is the mystery to me.- Open mic nights - the owner/management gets paid, the bartenders get paid, the wait staff gets paid, the janitors get paid and the musician works for free, plus he/she even brings friends and family in to make more money for the people who are getting paid
I have been beating that drum for years. Our town is fraught with "jam night" events. I will never play at one, and outside of when our band threw one a year ago, I have not. I have attended a few just to look around. It's the same guys, many of which do not play in bands regularly, who know 3 songs, and this is their 7 minutes of fame to get up and play one of those 3 songs. All so their drunken friends can give them empty praise telling then how great they are despite the fact that they usually suck (or a band would recruit them). If you want me to play, you will pay me. If not, I don't really miss it. And I don't have to be in a bar with people who make me uncomfortable.
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Why we let people exploit us is the mystery to me.- Open mic nights - the owner/management gets paid, the bartenders get paid, the wait staff gets paid, the janitors get paid and the musician works for free, plus he/she even brings friends and family in to make more money for the people who are getting paid
I have been beating that drum for years. Our town is fraught with "jam night" events. I will never play at one, and outside of when our band threw one a year ago, I have not. I have attended a few just to look around. It's the same guys, many of which do not play in bands regularly, who know 3 songs, and this is their 7 minutes of fame to get up and play one of those 3 songs. All so their drunken friends can give them empty praise telling then how great they are despite the fact that they usually suck (or a band would recruit them). If you want me to play, you will pay me. If not, I don't really miss it. And I don't have to be in a bar with people who make me uncomfortable. Yep as you have stated in bold above this is the reason they want to do it and why they don't mind NOT getting paid. Good luck to them, they are enjoying themselves and bringing some fun to their lives. It is is their guitar, their voice, even though they may only know three songs, their time (not mine or yours) and if they choose to do it for free, well more power to them. This is mainly a hobbyist board, where most people are actually out money fulfilling their hobby of making music, just getting tired of this old argument on here, maybe if it was a pro board for working musicians I would understand, but on here it isn't. Musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 01/14/17 02:34 AM.
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<...>Using your "logic", if you are using BIAB or RB you are putting other musicians out of work! That drummer and bass player and rhythm guitar player and keyboardist who have to work as Walmart greeters could be making a living playing music if you were not using software to eliminate their jobs! And Notes, you actually make money selling tools to help others eliminate paid musicians!<...> Faulty logic. We play in venues that hire singles and duos, and never hired a larger band. There isn't even enough room for a larger band. The stage, if there is one is 8'x8' and even a trio wouldn't fit on that. Putting musicians out of work? Not. Putting musicians to work. In addition there are places around that hire 4 piece and larger bands. They would never-ever hire a duo because their venue is too large, we would look tiny on stage, and couldn't fill the room with the ambience that a larger group could. In fact, we played for the local Marine Corps League for the Corps' birthday party for 12 years straight. They got a bigger facility, thanked us for all our years of entertainment, and told us that they needed a bigger band for their new building. I recommended a couple of bands to them. So we are not putting anybody out of work at all. Your logic is very flawed. We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. How would you like it if someone came to your boss, told him he would do your job for free a couple of days a week, and your boss gave you a couple of days a week off without pay? This is what open mic venues do to working musicians. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I understand the feelings of some of the payed musicians on this forum but like all issues that effect us personally it's hard to be objective.
It boils down to the following question. If you choose performing music as a way of making money why should a money making venue subsidize you by not choosing a business plan that includes the low cost option of open mic nights? It's freedom and capitalism in the raw.
Tony
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Reputation probably keeps the drummer, bass player, rhythm guitarist and keyboardist off the stage more so than BIAB ever could.
Some musicians are either unreliable, incorrigible and unkempt. Some are all three and more.
Style probably keeps the drummer, bass player, rhythm guitarist and keyboardist off the stage more so than BIAB ever could.
Many musicians are locked into a particular genre of music and lack the ambition and drive to expand out their current playlist so therefore would not be a good fit to play in a band that plays originals rather than all covers. The metal guitarist may not be able to adjust to working with an all acoustic bluegrass band. (The bluegrass band likely couldn't adjust either)
BIAB is a tool. Midi is a tool. A good keyboard player with a quality keyboard playing live and using his keyboard to it's full potential can replace an entire orchestra. A musician that is versatile and a good player can use midi from his guitar to replace a keyboardist, bass player, drummer.
The fact that Notes is chosen for a gig over his competitors probably has nothing to do with BIAB but more so with his personality, business sense, talent and reputation. Logic tells us that regardless the reason a choice between several options is made that those options not chosen must look elsewhere for consideration.
Charlie
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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eddie1261
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<...>Using your "logic", if you are using BIAB or RB you are putting other musicians out of work! That drummer and bass player and rhythm guitar player and keyboardist who have to work as Walmart greeters could be making a living playing music if you were not using software to eliminate their jobs! And Notes, you actually make money selling tools to help others eliminate paid musicians!<...> Faulty logic. We play in venues that hire singles and duos, and never hired a larger band. There isn't even enough room for a larger band. The stage, if there is one is 8'x8' and even a trio wouldn't fit on that. Putting musicians out of work? Not. Putting musicians to work. In addition there are places around that hire 4 piece and larger bands. They would never-ever hire a duo because their venue is too large, we would look tiny on stage, and couldn't fill the room with the ambience that a larger group could. In fact, we played for the local Marine Corps League for the Corps' birthday party for 12 years straight. They got a bigger facility, thanked us for all our years of entertainment, and told us that they needed a bigger band for their new building. I recommended a couple of bands to them. So we are not putting anybody out of work at all. Your logic is very flawed. We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. How would you like it if someone came to your boss, told him he would do your job for free a couple of days a week, and your boss gave you a couple of days a week off without pay? This is what open mic venues do to working musicians. Insights and incites by Notes Spot on, Notes. Giving a club a free band while bands are sitting at home wishing they had a gig is bad for our business and if band members would "band" together and stop doing free stuff, the practice of jam night would die a quiet death. But the non-working musicians are still attention whores and that few bits of empty praise from their friends matters to them. For myself, the only one I have to impress is ME.
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I understand the feelings of some of the payed musicians on this forum but like all issues that effect us personally it's hard to be objective.
It boils down to the following question. If you choose performing music as a way of making money why should a money making venue subsidize you by not choosing a business plan that includes the low cost option of open mic nights? It's freedom and capitalism in the raw.
Tony Around here, most establishments that offer open mic also have paid bands the rest of the week... so it isn't as though the open mic undermines the other musicians.. they draw different crowds. Karaoke and open mic both draw an audience of active participants that hopes to watch a while then play a while. Most of the people in the open mic audience have their names on the list to perform. Same goes for karaoke. Traditional bands appeal to an audience of passive observers. They came either to socialize or to hear the band. In both cases they tend to be passive observers while the open mic and karaoke crowds tend to be active participants. In the same sense that Eddie would not be interested in attending a karaoke or open mic night, those crowds would probably not be interested in watching someone else perform if they didn't have the chance to get on stage next. The establishment owner has an incentive to appeal to all of the above crowds, because if he limits it to the same one every night, it dilutes the earning potential. For example if his live music audience tends to spend $x,000 a week, if he can focus the same 7 day income into 5 days, anything he makes on the other 2 days from the karaoke and open mic crowd is gravy. So in a sense, these karaoke & Open mic acts help the club owners to stay in business, which is good for the other acts that are getting paid. But there is also the case of minimum quality, below which point it drives customers away. Lots of open mic nights close down because the quality is such that even the other players get embarrassed and stop coming.
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Back on topic.... As a Xtra Styles user & winner in the contest, the song I wrote for it, "Lovely Mystery", is the perfect example of "my reasons for making music". We have ALL seen the odd couple, the old fart with the young blond, or the old lady with the young stud....the well dressed man & the derelict looking wife, etc etc and have wondered HOW the got so lucky (or unlucky, as the case may be  ). How they, as a couple, could go thru such sorrow, or joy, or stupidity...come on, ya all KNOW what I am talking about, we ALL know that couple! The song is, plain & simple, myself wondering out loud in a way that others can relate to. 
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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I'm from the WWII era when making music as a family was more common. We didn't have TV until I was 14. Listening to radio while huddled as a family WAS our main source of entertainment.
We would entertain ourselves by singing and playing guitar or mandolin. I think that folks today have more entertainment options so home-brew music has fallen off sharply in recent decades.
We made our own 'instuments' such as a salt box partially filled with rice or dried beans for a shaker.
Technology has stolen much of those joyous memories.
Donny
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We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. You make a big deal out of open mic participants taking jobs from working musicians yet you use (and even sell addons for) a software tool designed specifically to replace musicians! How do you not see the hypocrisy in that?
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 01/14/17 04:01 PM.
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I'm from the WWII era when making music as a family was more common. We didn't have TV until I was 14. Listening to radio while huddled as a family WAS our main source of entertainment.
We would entertain ourselves by singing and playing guitar or mandolin. I think that folks today have more entertainment options so home-brew music has fallen off sharply in recent decades.
We made our own 'instuments' such as a salt box partially filled with rice or dried beans for a shaker.
Technology has stolen much of those joyous memories.
Donny I'm with you on that! My dad came from a family that grew up on a farm. A larger family that had 14 kids. To this day, they still meet every Sat morning in the "milkhouse." It's not really that now, but once was. It's not uncommon for guitars to start playing and a sing-a-long happens...and dancing. Thanks for sharing that. I absolutely love hearing of simpler times. I miss it, and wasn't even there! Thanks Donny!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. You make a big deal out of open mic participants taking jobs from working musicians yet you use (and even sell addons for) a software tool designed specifically to replace musicians! How do you not see the hypocrisy in that? J3, Simple logic dictates that technology is replacing humans in every field of endeavor. It seems necessary that each of us find a niche to fill for survival and self preservation. Bob Norton is slightly ahead of the curve. YMMV Donny
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We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. You make a big deal out of open mic participants taking jobs from working musicians yet you use (and even sell addons for) a software tool designed specifically to replace musicians! How do you not see the hypocrisy in that? J3, Simple logic dictates that technology is replacing humans in every field of endeavor. It seems necessary that each of us find a niche to fill for survival and self preservation. Bob Norton is slightly ahead of the curve. YMMV Donny I hear ya Don and I fully support using technology. But I don't understand why folks feel the need to demonize others who are just trying to have fun or catch a break.
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I'm from the WWII era when making music as a family was more common. We didn't have TV until I was 14. Listening to radio while huddled as a family WAS our main source of entertainment.
We would entertain ourselves by singing and playing guitar or mandolin. I think that folks today have more entertainment options so home-brew music has fallen off sharply in recent decades.
We made our own 'instuments' such as a salt box partially filled with rice or dried beans for a shaker.
Technology has stolen much of those joyous memories.
Donny Lovely story don. Thanks for sharing. We definitely have such a huge variety of options for technology based entertainment these days. My sister is visiting me at the moment and is lying in bed playing bridge online with people all around the world. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing. One thing I do notice is that kids handle all this technology overload much better than adults. It just becomes part of their lives.
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We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. You make a big deal out of open mic participants taking jobs from working musicians yet you use (and even sell addons for) a software tool designed specifically to replace musicians! How do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I don't see the software tool replacing musicians. I gig in a duo using software. But I play in places that never hired a bigger band. I play in places where a bigger band wouldn't even fit. Two musicians are working in a place that has always had singles or duos. Net gain or loss = zero. So how is the software replacing musicians? Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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We have a couple of clubs here that now have open mic nights on the weekends. Musicians are playing for free, they are bringing in paying customers, and getting one free beer. That's exploitation, that's putting other musicians out of work. You make a big deal out of open mic participants taking jobs from working musicians yet you use (and even sell addons for) a software tool designed specifically to replace musicians! How do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I don't see the software tool replacing musicians. I gig in a duo using software. But I play in places that never hired a bigger band. I play in places where a bigger band wouldn't even fit. Two musicians are working in a place that has always had singles or duos. Net gain or loss = zero. So how is the software replacing musicians? Insights and incites by Notes The software is making it possible for you to provide musical parts in your performances that another musician would be playing. So because of the software you are able to avoid hiring musicians. And you sell software to allow others to eliminate paid musicians from their performances, recordings and practice sessions! AND ALL THAT IS JUST FINE! What is hypocritical is doing that and then turning around and criticizing musicians who want to play an open mic! Open mics (and similar events) are 1) fun for the musicians, 2) beneficial for the venue (which is almost always barely breaking even) and 3) perfectly legal! So I encourage you to keep performing and saving money by not hiring real musicians AND I encourage anyone who enjoys Open Mics to go out and have fun!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 01/15/17 08:15 PM.
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Doesn't make sense to me. Two musicians working where two musicians have always worked.
We just sound bigger than two musicians used to sound.
Net gain = 0
Net loss = 0
So how many musicians are out of work?
So following your flawed logic, the player in a piano bar who brings along a drum machine is putting a drummer out of work, even though a drummer has never played in that piano bar.
Doesn't make sense to me.
So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Wow! I can't believe someone needs to point this out to you two. It's not 100% in either direction!
Just because YOU wouldn't have additional musicians, doesn't mean NO ONE is using it that way.
And just because someone is using the technology to enhance their performance doesn't mean they would WOULD be using additional musicians otherwise.
Seriously, at some point respect the post please.
I love ya both but, come on. Keep going back and forth all you want; but maybe maybe start a new thread. Just a thought. Flame on.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Wow! I can't believe someone needs to point this out to you two. It's not 100% in either direction!
Just because YOU wouldn't have additional musicians, doesn't mean NO ONE is using it that way.
And just because someone is using the technology to enhance their performance doesn't mean they would WOULD be using additional musicians otherwise.
Seriously, at some point respect the post please.
I love ya both but, come on. Keep going back and forth all you want; but maybe maybe start a new thread. Just a thought. Flame on.
You should read the posts more carefully! I am not concerned at all with whether or not someone is using tech to replace musicians...if they are then fine...if they are not then fine! I am responding to the tired old assertion that open mic participants are somehow wronging musicians who wanna get paid. And of course they are not!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 01/16/17 07:37 AM.
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Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation
Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
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