PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Slippery Slope On Compliments

I find all comments above are worthy of consideration.


Bacharach & David wrote an excellent song about exactly that: "Do you know the way to San Jose?"

No. I apologize if that's what I said. I thought I had indicated that that was more recent. I used to MAYBE get 1-2 a week. And some weeks I wouldn't get any at all. That was because when I first started, my market for work AND for talent was right were I lived! LOL I don't live in a big city or anything either!

That has been since people got much more active on social media and networking. NOT 30 years by a LOOOOONG shot!



I explained the numbers above, and I hope that clarified it. So not anywhere near 25,000 demos! Not. At. All.

I have found A LOT of artists I love to work with. I would say I have a roster of a little over 500 to work with. Those, are singers, guitarists, bass, drums, studio engineers...you name it. Some are better than others. Many times budget dictates the caliber of talent I get to use.

Another HUGE factor for me is if they need to have to have a specific sound. As an example, years ago I had a jeweler who loved the song "The Search Is Over" by the band Survivor. He said he would do anything to get that sound. I was lucky enough to know a guy out of Memphis that worked with Jim Jamison. I had opened for Jim (not Survivor) which was just enough to get me in the door with him. He sang one of my jingles! It was a total high point for me. I had him sing a total of 3 for me over the years. I miss that he is gone.

So people come, and people go. Just because they have a sound, doesn't mean it works for everything. People who sound like Janice Joplin can't necessarily sound like Britney Spears. Also, male and female are two, obviously, different sounds.

Now ad in those who can record from a personal studio, and those that have to go to one. There are many variables that come into play...especially when you work on tight deadlines at times.

Many times because of tours, people are available at some points, and not at others.

I have my people that are my "go to" people. They are proven reliable, fast, and accurate...and available at the time I need them.

Now multiply that by the number of people needed for any given project.

I also have to go outside of that box to get something specific, and it's easier to know what available BEFORE you need it, then to be desperate. At least that's my take.

This also brings up something that I don't think people consider. I would guess about half of those that I get are from non-English speaking countries, or it's not their native language. This can present a problem in both pronunciation of sung words or sometimes even basic communication. This is not to say they aren't talented...they very much are. But singers especially, many times can't be used. The internet has opened up a whole new world!



Indeed. But I think that's apples to oranges. There's a good chance a guitarist or graphic artist may be able to do something that someone else can do...copy a "style." But again, with singing, it's has a uniqueness to it. As great as Berry White was he wouldn't "sound like" Steve Perry...or visa versa...or Cindy Laupar. Guitars a a bit more masking of the sexes...as is graphic arts.

As far as me being surprised that some are not that talented...that wasn't my point. My point was THEY don't seem to realize it.

Again, there is NOTHING wrong with not being able to sing. I CAN'T! But I'm not asking people to hire me to do it either. If I did, and they didn't...I would know why. I wouldn't have to ask. If I did need to know, I wouldn't say they don't know what they're talking about. I would listen. If I disagreed, so be it. I would see if there was any merit in it; but grow from it.

For what it's worth, that's why I love BIAB. It allows me to put together things fast, and well. That's hard to beat in my book!

To be clear on this, I don't know him well, but I've heard him perform often enough. He is ok, but I wouldn't say exceptional. Sort of a small fish in a small pond.

Who am I to say not to go for it? Nobody! I fear for the worst, but hope for the best for him.

As far as the song you referenced, I had never heard it. I read the lyrics first, and saw who it was performed by. THEN I heard it...not at all the feel I was expecting! LOL Thanks for the share of that. I love learning new things like that!

How do you learn?

Well if you are serious about learning, you have to be willing to ask for and receive criticism.

When I first started in digital recording wow, talk about bungled stuff...lets just leave it at that. I posted my amateurish tunes in the forum for songs and asked others to listen and discuss what was going on. I never took offense no matter how harsh the crits were. When I send songs to outside reviews, I ALWAYS ask for the strictest, most brutally honest reviews they offer. How else will I learn? And yeah, some of it stings.... but hey, it's all about getting better. Today, I find that the lessons learned and applied have given me the skills to jump into the arena with the big boys and girls... the pros, and to do it successfully.

So if I am asked to critique someone who is "less than stellar" I will offer honest advice. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask. I'm not going to tell them it sounds good if it doesn't sound good. There's no need to be a buzzkill but I'm not going to lie to them either. there are tactful ways to tell someone they need more work or that perhaps they are in the wrong line of work, and I have really tried to work on being a bit more diplomatic. Most often that comes down to.... did they ask for my opinion? If not.... I keep my diplomatic mouth closed.

If they did ask for thoughts, opinions, critiques..... OK.. they asked....What I will do first, is try to find something in the song, it might be the guitar playing or perhaps the tone of the guitar, or the singer's voice characteristics, something that they ARE doing right and start with that. I tell them what I like about that and then go from there.

If it's recording & production, same deal. I don't comment as often now on songs here, or in other forums where I used to be really active and reviewing every single song. Frankly, I don't have the time to listen to everything let alone write an honest critique of every song. I mostly comment on the songs that really stand out and capture my attention or that are really good and perhaps are lacking one thing to make them nearly perfect.

I've been taken to task here, publicly as well as through PM over some of my comments. I guess I was a bit too outspoken in those instances. I tend to call it like I see it and not everyone is looking for or wanting advice. They just want to be told "good job" and sometimes I will simply say that too.

hope that helps.....

If not.. I can tell you what I really think!!

Wendy, excellent idea about a checkbox. I'd like to encourage musicians without a long critique. Peter?

I don't think that constant praise is necessarily a good thing. It can be very destructive in large doses.

Donny

+1

I would actually "Like" this comment if there was way to

Herb,

There is a fine line between CONstuctive and DEstructive criticism . Few of us have that unique gift. I had a boss who could reprimand me without breaking my spirit. He was a grand total of one in my entire working life!

Donny

))) I would post examples, but I really don't think that would be fair, nice, or professional.


How about posting examples of jingles (favorites that you've made) from your 20 years in the biz? I love jingles, and listening to music is more fun than reading these kinds of arguments. You may get some publicity and business from it, if someone hears them and needs some jingle work.

I'm not too hot on the idea of a like button. I was a moderator on a forum where we tried that and the number of posts plummeted afterwards...you know just hit the like button and move on like facebook. Nobody should be shy about saying a few words about something that appeals to them on the forum. Jump in and enjoy! We appreciate positive comments and constructive criticism from all. Really.


Bud

I grew up and frequently jammed with Bob ( Zimmerman ) Dylan in HS circa '56-59 (I'm 2 months older) but I would probably never qualify him as a singer, if asked.

Also, the Everly Brothers were turned down by every studio in Nashville before 'making it'. They would play in the alley behind Ryman Auditorium hoping to be heard.

Donny

I meant posting examples of some of what I receive and feel...well...could use a lot more practice? Then I guess people could decide if I missed out on the Beatles.




I would love to do that; but I primarily write for agencies, stations, and sometimes direct to client. In all cases, the jingles are a complete buy out. So it becomes property of the person who pays me.

That being said, I am starting some new products this year that would allow me to post some of the work I do. Some of it using PG Music products.

I also want to make sure I don't devalue may service because of potential clients having the perception that "it's not that hard."

Thanks for the interest!

Sure, come in here with your real life experience, great wisdom and solid points.

I wouldn't have thought of that...the part about postings dropping. Great points!

J&B,

I didn't mean to exclude comments but allow listeners an option to "like" so as to be positive reinforcement. I would think that would actually boost participation. Many (including myself) hesitate due to fear of being thought stupid although I have rarely seen anyone flamed on these PG Forums.

Donny

Agreed. Though, I don't remember him singing jingles either.



There is a difference though. They weren't turned down for not being able to sing. They had a sound the record companies weren't looking for at the time. I think we can agree they had a sense of pitch and rhythm and some pretty amazing talent.

What I'm referring to are people that don't sing in key...I don't mean as in a creative choice either. They also may not have much of a sense of rhythm.

Caaron,

This response is just for the occasional person you mentioned who takes offense when you decline their services. When somebody listens to the same song you just listened to, but they hear "cha-ching" while you hear "ba-boom"...

It's hard to hear an opinion we don't like, and easy to disagree with something we can dismiss as easily as personal opinion.

But if you can run whatever these people submit through software like Melodyne that can show a graphical representation of how well each note sits where its supposed to... in terms of both pitch and timing... you might not have to offer your opinion at all. Let the picture do the talking.

Peter, IIRC, wasn't Mac the Jingle Master? He used BIAB exclusively.

Donny

Post whenever you think you have a good representation of your song. And ALWAYS remember this. Everybody here, at even step on the musical evolution ladder, wrote their first song at some point in their life/career. For the most part, the songwriters here are not generally full time professional musicians. The guy who gigs her the most plays covers and in his own words never got the hang of writing. Some (like me) have put out a CD just because we can, and largely for our amusement and sense of accomplishment.

Also remember that your songs are your songs. They mean something to you. Nobody can ever tell you that your ideas are wrong. You won't get a lot of deeply negative vibes here. You'll get more gentle suggestions, all friendly attempts to help you learn the game a little better. Try the suggestions if you choose to, and if they don't suit your vision, delete that change and you will be back where you started. Keep in mind that nobody here will ever try to discourage you.

Just remember that Kevin will ALWAYS say you have too much reverb. (Sorry man. Couldn't resist! )

Eddie,

More cowbell and a bagpipe solo, please?

Donny

My thoughts.....

put better than I could say it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I71cY9Ysy5U


(wink x2)

On this forum, I have been around a LONG time - mid to late 90's when I started learning here. I've run into exactly one person (hasn't posted in this thread yet!) who thinks their musical poop doesn't stink and about 1 month a year, they'll show up here asking how to get more radio play with their stuff; how to market; ask opinions about the latest feed-on-the-ignorant music publishing scams, etc.

Their stuff is schlocky / stinky bad; lyrics full of cliché; songs that go nowhere, etc. They have changed user names a couple of times after a few persons have tried to kindly suggest actual improvements in mostly kind ways, but it is clear over the years, that this person doesn't believe that their material has anything wrong with it - they believe that all that is missing are different marketing perspectives and methods.

Have I said any of the above to that person? No. I do not believe it will do any good to or for them. I actually believe this person might have some personality defects of some type just based on the delusional behavior they have exhibited with their posts. Fixing delusion is above my pay grade!

With rather rare exceptions, most of us here are just making music because it's plain good fun. We've had a couple guys that make their living in the recording/producing industry, and many that do the 1 or 2 person band gig full time; coming this way by way of the singular product BIAB. The folks relying on this for their income, they are the professionals.

I consider my music hobby to be like an amateur photographer that has studied the craft, but I'm not fooling myself that I will ever be able to replace my income with music hobby income. What I do is akin to giving a framed photo I've taken to family and friends and sometimes they will hang the picture in a prominent place, many times it ends up in the storage room. Totally o.k. with that.

Does this give me any kind of right for 'brutal honesty'? Nope. Even when it's tempting, still doesn't give me a right to that.

In a week, I will be participating in February Album Writing Month, where thousands of people across the globe will be trying to write 14 songs each over a 4 week period. There will be a whole bunch of bad songs I will write, and the others will write, but there will also be a couple that will get some nice comments (if past years are any indication) and I will find many that made me smile in some way, and I always take the time to let somebody know if that was the case and give a very specific hint at what it was that made me smile.

Some of those folks have become my favorite artists over the years. There's a guy who plays the hang drum (think of an inverted steel drum with more pure tone, played with the hands) who just simply makes goosebump inducing songs each and every year.

If a song makes you smile or get 'that feeling' that only music can provide. Let the artist know with a kind comment or some cash sent their way.

Oh, and if anyone's interest was piqued: www.fawm.org is the February Album Writing Month challenge. Site goes live in a day or so for 2017. There will be lots of opportunity to practice kind commenting.