PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting Stuck on an Idea for a Song

I have a song idea I would like to get from my head to the final product, but so far I'm still stuck at the idea process. My idea for the song is a mix of Jimmy Buffet, reggae, Hawaiian, & Southern. I already know what instruments I want use which are acoustic guitar, percusion (congas, shakers, guiro, timbale, bonga), drum kit, bass, Haawaiian steel pedal guitar, horns, steel pan, piano, and harmonica. I also know that I plan to include a lead singer with some background singers, and I have somewhat of any idea of what the song will be about but not idea about the chords or melody or words.

I would listen to songs of Jimmy Buffet and especially the Zac Brown Band for inspiration.
I am not that clued up with styles but Hawaiian or Calypso may be a good starting point.

Of course, people do things in different ways....

I will browse the styles in BB to see if I find anything I like. One of the problems with that is there are so many good styles that I like.

From this list, sounds like an interesting style:

I find that the best ideas that actually result in a song are the ones that start with a song idea as opposed to searching styles for inspiration.

Have the idea in mind. It could be as simple as a really cool title. I've written several with only a title as the starting point.

If you remember anything from your school years.... I'm assuming they still teach this..... When you have to write a paper on a topic, our teacher taught us to put the ideas down on a piece of paper, everything we wanted to be sure to cover, and then to organize them into an OUTLINE of how we wanted to present the ideas. What was first, second third and so on. Then, from that outline, we could start the writing process.

This was actually how David sent the ideas for Whiskey for Breakfast. A bunch of thoughts for the first verse with an outline for the rest of the song indicating what he wanted to cover. Knowing only what was in the outline, I worked to formulate the song with my thoughts and ideas.


Starting with what you have listed..... I would pick a good basic, solid style. Bass, drums, guitars, and write the song using that style. You should work out the lyrics and structure in that basic style that fits. Then, after the song is written, take it into RB and add the steel, the percussion, the piano, the harmonica and whatever else you want.


Right now, you're stuck at the "idea" point. I personally think it's too early to be choosing the instruments to a song that hasn't yet been written. You're essentially putting the cart before the horse. Although, I'm sure others will disagree, and that's fine. Some people might write that way, heck you might write that way, but if you're stuck right here and now, you gotta do something different because the way you've been trying to write this song isn't working for you at this point in time. At this point in the process, you need to be coming up with a great idea for a song and you should be writing down all the thoughts and ideas that might or might not fit into the story line of the song. Write it all down and at some point a story and format will start to emerge. If the idea still won't gel, maybe it's time to either put it on the shelf and work on something totally new, or find a collaborator to help. Shelving a song is OK. I have a stack of notebooks filled with shelved song ideas. Occasionally, I will go back through them and see if anything in there "works now" and see if I can either finish it or use it in a fresher approach in a new song.

anyway, just some of my thoughts on the situation....

There are A LOT of techniques out there for finding ideas. A simple method I use is using what inspired you to write in the first place to actually write. I'll give you an example, but this can be taken as far as you need it to. It's not complicated, but it is time consuming...but writing can be that way. BTW, this is part of how you can write on demand.

You picked Jimmy Buffet as a source of inspiration. So I grabbed one of his songs at random...Margaritaville. Then I picked just one random line from the song..."Searchin' for my lost shaker of salt."

The words that jump out to me are searchin', lost, shaker, and salt. Of course "my" can also be great, and if pronouns give meaning to a song.

So let's start with "salt" (again picked randomly. You don't have to pick them randomly, I'm just doing it to show it doesn't have to be in any specific order.)

Now for a bit of free association.

SALT-first things that come to mind mind for me are salt water, seasoning food, too much is awful, salty tears, salt burns your eyes, taste in my mouth, without it food is bland, around the rim of a margarita glass, salt shaker, reminds me of how often "shaker" is in country music, it's white, melts ice, the term "salty" is a current term used by kids.......you get the idea.

Now, you can start using some of those ideas if anything sticks out. I start to develop one; but there may be several you want to do from the list. Also, more can come from using other techniques.

So an example of a line that I came up with quick from above. I'm not committed to it, but it's an idea, so I write it down.

"Life would be bland
without a little salt now and than"

That's a start. I just replaced "food" being bland with "life." Super simple all the way around.

The next part would be to start thinking about what that line could mean.

Does it mean that the person is justifying drama in their life? If so what drama? A relationship? With a significant other? Or maybe a parent? Brother, sister? Friend?

Or is salt like a seasoning for life? "You take the good you take the bad" kind of thing?

Maybe it helps give you appreciation? Oooo...."appreciation" can be a great word/concept. It' doesn't have to be that EXACT word.
Some, not all, synonyms for "appreciation"

1. admiration

2. perceptiveness

3. discernment

4. taste

5. grasp

6. hold

7. gratitude

8. appreciating

9. appreciate

10. gratefulness

11. appreciated

12. respect

13. commendation

14. recognition

15. appreciative

16. sympathy

17. enjoyment

18. thank

19. understanding

20. interest

21. acknowledgment

22. praise

23. thanking

24. delight

25. congratulations

26. satisfaction

27. thanks

28. gratification

29. contentment

30. acceptance

31. commending

32. tribute

33. recognizing

34. realization

35. compliment

36. esteem

37. revaluation

38. acclaim

39. pleasure

40. value

41. enjoy

42. acknowledge


I like number 24, "delight" because it could mean a form of happiness, or a play on it could be "de light" is in an informal/Jamaican accent of saying "the light"...which could be a sunset, or sunrise, or just a great sunny day. Or, playing off of the good/bad concept could lead into a stormy day, verses a sunny say.

So many, many, ideas can come from that! You could, but would probably go insane, do this for just about every word in your inspiration song(s) AND every word you come it resulting from the ideas that came from it. Ideas...not a problem anymore

That's not even looking at rhymes yet!

1 syllable:
alt, ault, brault, dault, fault, galt, gault, halt, hault, kalt, malt, mault, nault, sault, smalt, spalt, spalte, vault, walt

2 syllables:
asphalt, assault, at fault, bank vault, barrault, basalt, cobalt, covault, default, desalt, envault, exalt, gestalt, groined vault, herault, inhalt, in alt, kuralt, no-fault, pennwalt, perrault, pinault, pole vault, renault, ribbed vault, rouault, stirewalt, thrust fault

3 syllables:
anawalt, barrel vault, ehrenhalt, faribault, galipault, greenawalt, hanawalt, in default, normal fault, pinsoneault, rachelvolt, somersault, thunderbolt, to a fault

4 syllables:
burial vault, creditanstalt, gravity fault, kreditanstalt, treuhandanstalt

5 syllables:
judgement by default, judgment by default, san andreas fault, sexual assault


I like the word "malt" from that. Sticking with the overall theme in many of the songs, including something about a malt beverage wouldn't be out of bounds by a long shot. Even if it's saying your need something stronger or sweeter than a malt beverage.

Even in writing this, I see my own phrases "out of bounds" which could work well, and "by a long shot"...which could also mean a type of beverage...or a game of some sort.

So this whole exercise is not even close to how far you could run with it...all from 1 term!! If you did this with just those first words I picked, you would have more than you would need more than likely.

I hope this helps. I just felt the need to let you know, IF you want to write a song in a style, you don't necessarily have to have a concrete concept before hand. You need an idea you can develop. It might be an instrument, or a song, or a situation...anything can be developed. That's the fun. It's also the work of the craft.

If I had to rely on inspiration and the "star to align" I would starve. I have to be able to write just about an style on demand. I use these techniques all the time, and can tell you first hand they work really well for me.

Best of luck! Can't wait to hear your music!

Bouncing off the ideas offered by Guitarhacker and HeartoLearn, another technique that forces the brain to create images, and images can then be turned into words by describing in writing, the image in your head. Extremely easy to do and everyone does it; Which means everyone can do it.

The technique is to simply write down three random and unrelated words (nouns) and then describe the image the three words create in your mind.

For instance: tree,river, dress

Your mind instantly creates an image. No two people's image is exactly the same but all will be similar.

Most people conjure up something along the lines of a girl in a dress standing on the bank of a river. Others may have her in a dress, setting under a tree with a river in the distant background.

The idea proceeds along similar to HeartoLearn's presentation to create a story form the image and lyrics from the story.

Charlie

Picking up on Charlie's thoughts.......

Paint the picture in the listener's mind. Too many people stop with the girl standing on the river bank, and leave it so very vague. That's what I call lazy writing. Fill in as many details for the audience as you can without the need to write a book.

She was a dark haired beauty, in a red gingham dress, laying under a tree, by the cold muddy river, dreaming of a boy she knew.

Not looking for the rhymes, but just filling on some detail.... Now, in this one line, you get a detailed look at what I'm seeing in my mind more so than just tree, river, dress.....


It's been said that a song is essentially a 3 minute movie. Every single word and phrase has to count and has to tell a critical part of the story. You don't need filler. You need grist.

Hi,

"Jimmy Buffet, reggae, Hawaiian, & Southern"

If you ask me to write a song on demand using the above ideas, I would need a better idea of what those four things mean to you.

As I play in the Florida Keys I am all to familiar with Jimmy Buffet...lol Margaritaville gets requested about a zillion times a night...lol Having said that Jimmy has a very wide range of styles.

If you are intent on writing a reggae song, that simplifies the process a good bit. At least we know what the rhythmic style will be.

I have no clear idea of what "Hawaiian, & Southern" means.

What ever chords you use are going to wind up in some sort of progression and perhaps a very simple progression if the style is reggae.

The melody will be dictated by the harmonic structure or the harmonic structure will be dictated by the melody.

Popular songs tend to be pretty simple. There are not as many good choices about things as one might think.

Both the harmonic structure and the melody will need to relate to the context of the lyrics.

An example of what I mean is, if we have a vocal line of "I hate this weather" going from C major 7 to F major 7 will not fit with the emotional context of the line.

The BPM needs to make sense with the words. If we are describing a slow moving trip down a river then a frenetic 240 BPM makes no sense.

If you have a developed idea of a certain sound defined by the use of the instruments you described, and a subject matter, that will automatically limit what chords and melody line you can generally use.

There are sounds that better relate to certain events. French Horn would not likely work as a sound to support war for example.

To me, the idea of a song being a three minuet movie is a very good way to think about song writing. In fact, paying attention to the sound tracks of movies will provide good guidance to chords and melodies that relate well to the word you will want to use.

Cheers,

Billy

OK, Islansoul, you've gotten a bunch of useful advice. So . . . now what are you gonna do? Well, I'm in a bit of a similar boat, which is the only reason why I dipped into this thread. I've composed a fair amount of music, but only two songs. I define a song as a piece of music that has words, so in that respect I've written only two songs.

But recently I've become interested in seeing if I could actually write something besides instrumentals. So, I've begun listening to lyrics much more closely. Being a guitarist who played solo guitar in bands and also as a classical soloist, I don't usually pay much attention to lyrics, so this has required a bit of a mental gear switch for me.

And I've arrived at a basic conclusion with respect to song lyrics. Either they tell a story (that I can understand) or they're pretty much just a series of words thrown together because perhaps they sound cool . . . I dunno. Looking back at the two songs I've written, I think I'll be more inclined toward the storyteller route. And speaking of Jimmy Buffet, especially with respect to his older tunes, the man was very much a story teller. So, if that's the lyrical style you like, well then I guess you'll first need to think of a story worth telling. If not, then perhaps the music will generate a mood such that a sufficient set of lyrics will work.

Now, notice how I'm focusing in on lyrics right away. I think if you have a set of lyrics that this will sort of dictate at least a general mood that you will want to show in your music. If I might use one of my own tunes as an example, About halfway through writing the lyrics, I actually began to hear zydeco music. I mean the accordian (of all things) and the whole bit. I knew by the time I'd finished the lyrics what sort of music I was gonna have to put to it. But I'm finding out that the opposite is more problematic. I've recently composed a nice chord progression and I'm beginning to slowly eke out some melody ideas, but I don't have any idea if I'll be able to write a set of lyrics that will go along with a melody I might come up with. Maybe I should go with stringing together a bunch of syllables that sound good together, I dunno . . .

Anyway, I guess if I had a single suggestion it would be to keep things very simple at the start. Just concentrate on the lyrics or the melody, whichever is moving you most, and get that down. Then start adding to it. This gives you a direction, a focus, that you might lose if you try too much at once.

Just reading the initial list of desired instruments and BGVs and my first impression is that is too many tracks. Start simple, then if more parts are needed to communicate the message add them in one by one but there only if necessary.

I really agree with the idea of starting simple. That does not mean it has to be simple in the end. I just find it less problematic to begin with simple ideas.

I don't have any special process in the beginning to come up with a song. I may play some melody I like or write lyrics I like or play some chord progression I like. After that basic starting point, I have a more structured approach.

At that point I normally pick out a couple of simple basic drum lines. What basic drum line I use is defined by the words and/or the chord structure. If I have written lyrics, I try to construct a drum line that works with the word placement and syllables. The drum line also has to match the context of the lyrics. That process most often gives me a good idea of the BPM.

Next I have two choices. I can devise a bass line and infer the chord structure or devise the chord structure and write the bass line later.

For me, I seldom come up with a melody before I decide on a chord structure. Perhaps because I have a much better understanding of chord/harmonic structure than melody. It is pretty easy to hear what melody notes will work over a given chord progression.

I think drums and bass are the most critical part of almost every song. With a great drum and bass line one has a good chance of producing a good song. With a poor drum and bass line, great lyrics and melody have little chance.

This is just my take on things and there are as many ways to do things as there are musicians. These comments are also mostly confined to main stream popular western music.

Cheers,

Billy

Essentially what my signature tag line says

I love that signature line, Herb.