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I was just having a short lunchtime jam with BIAB (it's good to be the boss  )and it finally occurred to me that there might be a relatively easy way to improve on the current automatic endings frustrations. According to my improv. teacher there are certain fairly standard ways to end a tune. E.G. repeat the last several bars before playing the last note with a fade and/or ritard. in the last bar, a 3625 3625 3625 1 repetition, a "sharp 1" (5 #1 1) &etc. You guys who've actually been playin' jazz for a while will know 'em (I'm still learnin', slo-o-owly). So why not pre-program several alternatives that can be selected with radio buttons as alternatives to the current 2 bar "ending". The chord sequence should be no problem as we (should?) nominate the key of the song anyway and this sequence will be in the nominal key sig.. The options needn't be definitive, perhaps 3 or 4 of the most common alternatives. A similar technique should be able to be applied to intro.'s as well...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Clever idea, Lawrie! But 3625? Wouldn't that normally be 1625?
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Quote:
Clever idea, Lawrie! But 3625? Wouldn't that normally be 1625?
Thanks Sam. If it was 1625 it would seem to resolve as you started the next iteration when you're trying to delay the resolution 'cos that indicates the end of the song.
Hence the 3625 3625 3625 1
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Great idea. I like the radio button part also.
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
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Personally, I think endings are just as diverse as intros and trying to package up a few standard ones might be helpful for trying out some ideas, but i think ultimately BIAB needs to reserve and recognize a separate entity of 'ending' just like they recognize an 'intro.' Those are as much a part of a song as is a verse, chorus or bridge. Let the user decide how they want to end the song and give them the tools to do it...most importantly the missing pieces like a ritard, or a hold, or a key transition, or a swell....this isn't rocket science.
I get frustrated looking through these posts to see how long this particular problem (and some others like the GUI) have been nagging at everyone. It's not like this isn't well-known as a limitation by users. Why has it not been addressed by PGMUSIC is more the question.
DD
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G'day DD,
actually, I'm looking at it from a jazz improvisation perspective. In this context there are certain "standard" ending methodologies. While these are predominately related to jazz, they can, and often will, work elsewhere.
As an aside, and 'cos I'm too lazy to reply in the right place... In another post of yours you question some terminology - particularly "chorus". BIAB's usage is standard jazz, which in turn has it roots in history. The current use of "chorus" in modern songs is really referring to a "refrain". Strictly speaking a chorus is a repetition of the whole song, excluding only intro and ending/coda
Given that, AFAIK, BIAB has its roots in jazz then it is not unreasonable for jazz oriented terminology to dominate, even though "chorus" in this context is not strictly a purely jazz term.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
As an aside, and 'cos I'm too lazy to reply in the right place... In another post of yours you question some terminology - particularly "chorus". BIAB's usage is standard jazz, which in turn has it roots in history. The current use of "chorus" in modern songs is really referring to a "refrain". Strictly speaking a chorus is a repetition of the whole song, excluding only intro and ending/coda
Given that, AFAIK, BIAB has its roots in jazz then it is not unreasonable for jazz oriented terminology to dominate, even though "chorus" in this context is not strictly a purely jazz term.
Lawrie, I suppose I could be more understanding of the terminology if the product were targetted primarily at jazz musicians, but it's not. I would suspect that were you to examine the user base of the product only a small fraction would actually consider themselves jazz musicians. This is where music and product engineering differ. What is important in a professional software product is to respect and recognize who your users are, what they need, and not force them to be what you are or what you want them to be.
I'll continue to use it as most users do which is a supplement to bigger and better products and continue to work around it's limitations, but I just can't help but think if they would get past their legacy predilections toward jazz and recognize who is actually using the product, they could be a LOT more.
DD
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The Chorus and also the "One Long Song" (which is actually called the durchkomponiert) is not limited to Jazz.
As a matter of fact, those two terms for the way to musically look at song structure actually predate Jazz by about a century or more. Started with Western Classical Musics.
However, many people use the vernacular, which actually refers to the lyric placement and not the musical structure of a song.
BIAB uses the terms and structure as taught at university today.
However, there is no reason why something couldn't be set up in a "toggle" situation to allow folks to define their song parts in other ways. This would depend upon pgmusic development, of course.
--Mac
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What is important in a professional software product is to respect and recognize who your users are, what they need, and not force them to be what you are or what you want them to be.
Would you please send this to Microsoft!
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
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Quote:
Quote:
What is important in a professional software product is to respect and recognize who your users are, what they need, and not force them to be what you are or what you want them to be.
Would you please send this to Microsoft!
Good idea!! With any luck the next version of Word will feature 'stanzas' instead of paragraphs, and 'tablets' instead of documents. That'll simplify things!!!! 
DD
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Good idea!! With any luck the next version of Word will feature 'stanzas' instead of paragraphs, and 'tablets' instead of documents.
Gives a whole new meaning to using Word to write a short "note". If you only use 25% of the page, I guess that would be a quarter note.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Quote:
Quote:
Clever idea, Lawrie! But 3625? Wouldn't that normally be 1625?
Thanks Sam. If it was 1625 it would seem to resolve as you started the next iteration when you're trying to delay the resolution 'cos that indicates the end of the song.
Hence the 3625 3625 3625 1
Rather than the 3 then, I would use the 4 and make the last 5 a 57th but I understand now why you would not want a 1 at the start of each bar. What do you think?
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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I think you don't know why jazzers would use the common 3625, Sam.
You don't know what it is that you don't know.
--Mac
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G'day Sam, Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Clever idea, Lawrie! But 3625? Wouldn't that normally be 1625?
Thanks Sam. If it was 1625 it would seem to resolve as you started the next iteration when you're trying to delay the resolution 'cos that indicates the end of the song.
Hence the 3625 3625 3625 1
Rather than the 3 then, I would use the 4 and make the last 5 a 57th but I understand now why you would not want a 1 at the start of each bar. What do you think?
In a jazz context all the chords would be at least 7ths (I simply didn't see the need to specify) - unless they're 9ths or 11ths or 13ths etc. - which often aren't written as such 'cos the player is expected to add these alterations themselves as they feel necessary. Note I said "often" - there are times when they are specified.
Using a 4625 doesn't really work - the voice leading from the preceeding 5 is wrong amongst other things.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I am not a jazz player but I sure play music and like jazz (trad jazz that is - free jazz does not impress me at all)! Heck, I know the jazzers like to use chord extensions all the time and several inversions and play in 1/16th or even 1/32nd notes. I know the theory but don't have the practice.
However, for Country, Rock and Pop, the third is seldom, if ever, heard...
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Quote:
However, for Country, Rock and Pop, the third is seldom, if ever, heard...
3625 does not exactly refer to some chord voicing. As Mac implied, you might like to google it up.
Martin
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Quote:
Quote:
However, for Country, Rock and Pop, the third is seldom, if ever, heard...
3621 does not exactly refer to some chord voicing. As Mac implied, you might like to google it up.
I know that. I was referring to the III chord. It is occasionally heard but not often. Most of the tunes in the 'Rolling Stone Magazine Top 500 All Time Hits' tend to focus on the I, the V(7), the IV, the VI and the II (plus modulations of course), in order of popularity
I did Google '3625 jazz music ending' and came up with this. In other words, I ended up right back here!
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Using the 4 chord would imply a new exposition - maybe a bridge or something - or perhaps just the next 4 bars (E.G. basic blues 1111 4411 5411)
As this is an ending we aren't looking for a new exposition...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I know that. I was referring to the III chord. It is occasionally heard but not often.
?
You should have left it alone, Sam.
The 2nd chord in "House of the Rising Sun" is a 3 chord.
Knock on Wood (!)
The 2nd chord in "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay" is a 3 chord.
The 3rd chord in the "Satisfaction" riff is a 3 chord.
2nd chord in "Tracks of My Tears" = 3 chord.
2nd chord in "Seargent Peppers" = 3 chord
2nd chord of "Back in the USSR"
"Wonderful World" as Elvis sung it
"For Your Love" riff
We Are the Champions (Queen)
Gimmie Some Lovin'
We're All Alone (Boz Skaggs wrote it, was also a Country hit)
Hit the Road, Jack
One (3 Dog Night)
The Letter ("Gimmie a Ticket for an Aeroplane" as Joe Cocker used to announce it...)
Secret Agent Man
Benny and the Jets
Come Together
Mrs. Brown (You've Got a Lovely Daughter) -- this one IS the Rhythm Changes head!
I Want to Hold Your Hand
Frankenstein (Edgar Winter Group)
Let It Be
Lean On Me
White Room
Purple Haze
Voodoo Chile
Wind Cries Mary
Vehicle
Summer in the City
That's off the top of my head, I could go on, but maybe you'll get the point from this much.
Maybe not.
--Mac
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 Thanks very much, Mac! I never stated it is not used but that it is used rarely (or at least in the 250+ hit songs I once analysed). I learn something new every day! That is what makes life worth living
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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