PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Your Source of Encouragement?

My personal take...don't mean to sound condescending...just going to honest.

Well....sure it would, but were all adults here.
I wouldn't want anyone to give me pats on the back with disingenuous patronizing of my material just to massage my ego or appeal to a sense of perceived frail emotions.
To me....that is worse that no comments or encouragement at all.

If one doesn't garner countless unsolicited compliments then maybe one should figure how to promote themselves differently and/or rethink their song writing goals and strive to write better.
Maybe most think one's songs are too simplistic, song subject in uninteresting, lyrics are a plethora of worn out cliches and/or it's poorly sung/arranged/recorded.
Personal genre subjectivity also dictates our preferences.

I know...song writing is a very personal process and emotions can be affected but just because we spend agonizing amounts of time to write a song to completion does not mean it has any musical merit or appeal to the masses.
That's it.

I listened to a few of your songs because of your thread here.
They all seem to be in the religious praise songs genre (if I'm correct) but I don't have a religious atom in my being and don't care for preachy, message songs so I would have no comments to offer.
It just occurred to me, are there some praise song forums to involve yourself with?

You've been provided some good opinions in previous posts so hope they help you come to terms with the realities us poor song writers must continually face.
"Thick skin" (which I've mentioned in other threads) is essential so one can just continue on with their own personal joy of song writing.

Just toughen up....keep writing....surround yourself with those of like mind/music and song writing interests.
If it helps....my fan base is non-existent also.

Respectfully....just calling it as I see it.

I realized that, but it's the song your post made me think of and I think the sentiment is valid in this context.

My earlier post was somewhat facetious, but the truth is that I had NO encouragement. When I was very young and started lessons, both parents were all like "Look at my boy only 5 years old and already playing the accordion so well." When the Beatles came to town and I decided that I wanted to play guitar, their support waned, if not vanished completely. Fast forward to the point in life when I decided to play music full time, and they both detested it, because in their minds, based on the fact that the only time they saw live music was at weddings, being a musician was not a real job.

Other people in the business understood, and many of them were supportive, but so many musicians I have known are jerks. They put other players down when that other player is better than them. Rather than elevate their own game to catch that person, the try to bring that person down to stroke their own ego. I have never seen such egomania than I have in musicians who all think they are just the best thing since pop tops on beer cans while playing that whole list of awful songs at every show. I know writers who refuse to acknowledge that anyone else on the planet writes music, yet they are afraid to play their originals at shows. I am actually pretty glad to be done with performing. Now I can write when I choose to, and not write when I choose to. Nobody hears it but me anyway (well, the dog...), so what's the point? Why bother? April of this year made 61 years I have been at music. Enough already. Time to move on to something new.

Hey chulaivet1966, thanks for your valued input. Some good things you mentioned.

Hey Paul....

I'm very glad you took my post as I intended.
Addressing adults, not as a lecture....just a reality check for us creative types who also put our creative efforts out for the world to see, comment on or judge.

Did I mention I don't have a fan base either?

Carry on....

Mornin' John....

I may be daft but I'm missing somenhting in what you state above.
I could be caffeine deficient at the moment also.

Carry on....

Chulaivet1966 -

Jim Fogle originally posted:



And then I responded:



And then Jim responded back:



And then I responded back:



Some of them got lost in the thread of other postings, hence the confusion. Hopefully it's now clear.

Yes....got it now.
Thanks for clarifying.

Back to it.....

Jim. Maybe you are referring to the true story of Florence Foster Jenkins? I saw the movie with Meryl Streep in the lead. The best line was at the end when she was dying she said something like "they may say that I couldn't sing but they will never say that I didn't sing".

Been gone a few weeks. I'm pointing back to the book 88 Song Writing Wrongs... If you are hoping to get encouragement from others who hear your songs perhaps re-arrange them or make a few changes so they are more appealing to those you hope to gain encouragement from.

Also, you might offer to allow someone to collaborate on them. Which would mean you'd have to accept some changes offered by someone else's opinion. Being open to changes can be very encouraging. If you don't like the changes someone else makes to your song go back to the original or use their changes for ideas.

You might also ask someone else to sing them for you. I do this and I also sing other writers songs for them. Some times that's for demo purpose but some times they keep all or part of my vocal tracks. Other times that have a different singer replace mine or their vocal tracks. The idea is to find the vocalist that best expresses the song.

Question; Have you become more encouraged over the time period since you created this thread?
Why? Why not? What was it that made you feel better? Worse? Have you applied any of the suggestions mentally, on paper, on instrument, on voice?

BTW, I listened to your 3 original songs on SoundCloud and I like all 3. I think if you brightened up your lead vocal with EQ and Compression or something that would get your voice to sound crisp and stand out a bit they would be great. I think those three songs are written as good or better than most of the local song writers I hear.

I, too, have had very little encouragement from family with my songwriting. Both of my kids play guitar, bass, but neither is all that interested in what I write. No wife or girlfriend ever provided me with much encouragement or enthusiasm with maybe one exception. And still, I struggle onward.

Writing is a lonely endeavor to be sure. And although I know a lot of good songwriters I just never have been able to co-write successfully. I seem to need to "surround" a song idea before I can write. Now, given a good song idea I can usually run with it: Joanne Cooper came up with the story for "Heather and Juniper" (see the User Showcase for more info) and I wrote the lyrics in about 30 minutes. But generally the actual writing process has always been a solitary endeavor for me. Oh, I can co-produce with others once the songwriting is done easily enough. But that beginning process is never easy. I always remember a James Taylor quote regarding his own songwriting challenges: "It doesn't come often, and it doesn't come easy." I found that statement encouraging in a defiant sort of way. So I struggle onward.

Songwriting motivation can come from some unusual places. Several years ago I produced an audiobook for Audible (now owned by Amazon.com) for a client, my first introduction to the literary writing world. Later I produced (it's called editing in the book world) two printed books for the same client. As with most NEW endeavors I became interested enough to want to try writing. I wrote and published one book ("The Songsmith"...imagine that) and an audiobook, and am well on the way in a second book. The point is literary writing really gave me some new insights to apply to songwriting. Particularly, I started writing a short, very short, story about whatever song I wanted to write. The process made me really focus on the foundation of my songwriting and actually made the process of starting a song a lot easier. If the short story sucks...I don't honor it with hours of lyric writing, and hours of studio work. I look for another idea. Songwriting is the "instant gratification" endeavor of the creative world in my experience. A novel takes months to write, mine took three, and a daily commitment to writing for an hour or more. While, on a good day, I've come up with a song idea in the morning and had a fairly good finished demo by day's end. By the way, only BIAB will let you do something like that. Another subject altogether.

I think all songwriting methods are valid if they work for you. But keeping yourself up and in the game requires a least a bit of dedication to the art/science of songwriting. READ about songwriting, build a little library of how-to books, listen to a lot of music, especially singer-songwriter stuff. Go listen to some live music. Luckily we have tons of that around Denver and Boulder, and a famous songwriting school in Lyons in the summer. Find what really motivates you and hit that button till you wear it out. And finally, THINK about what you want to write. Don't just throw junk at the wall to see what sticks. Be incisive and thoughtful about your songwriting. If you don't love the song idea you come up with, at least in my experience, you won't find the motivation to give it your best efforts. Done right, songwiting is hard work. It's a lonely experience mostly. "It doesn't come often, and it doesn't come easy."

I know a few songwriters who are disappointed that their friends and family do not support and encourage them but you have to remember that this is YOUR hobby and NOT THEIRS! They may be really interested when you show up with your first song but when you bring unreleased album number 5 out and expect them to be as excited about it as you are...well, you are almost certain to be disappointed!

With that said I have found online communities where everyone supports each other...I listen to yours and you listen to mine (not unlike this site's showcase!) But, of course, in those scenarios you are not the "star", rather, you are one of many and the responses you get will be reflective of your level of participation. Actually I have found that even friends and family will be more supportive if you also take time to show support for their hobbies and passions!

That phrase is where this starts to split into 2 divergent concepts.

Hobby? Who needs encouragement for their hobby? Stamp collecting, making scrapbooks, gardening, sewing..... those are hobbies. You just do a hobby because you have spare time and not a care in the world about how it turns out.

It is a very different situation when you are paying for a house, feeding a family, keeping a car running.... on money made from music. A lot of people here did that for some portion of their life. Some, like Notes for example, still do. I needed encouragement THEN, when music was how I earned my living, and I had none. I had DIScouragment from people who didn't understand that playing music WAS a job.Now, I write for me and I don't care what anybody thinks.

So level of involvement has a lot to do with this topic. In a way, that lack of encouragement made me better at what I did. The defiant streak in me, and I have that in abundance, drove me to show them they were all wrong. And when I quit playing full time, and soon after I quit completely, it wasn't because I was discouraged by it. I was just bored with it. They did not win. I stopped "racing". When I did the CD 2 years ago, I had 100 pressed and sold 45. But, that was more a labor of love and a bucket list thing. I didn't expect an Album of the Year Grammy for a self produced album. (Good thing, too! LOL!)

So in my case, I have to amend the thread title from Source of ENCOURAGEMENT to Source of Motivation. NOBODY is going to tell me I can't do something.

Dunno why you view those who did not encourage you as your opponents or enemies! "I don't care what anybody thinks." "They did not win." And regardless of whether it is your hobby or your job I don't understand why you would feel entitled to encouragement from others. I don't know your story of course but personally I don't expect others to support or encourage my hobbies or my career! If they do that is a nice bonus and I will definitely return the favor to them.

J3, I wasn't "not encouraged". I was DIScouraged. My own family members continued to try and tell me why I needed a job from 9-5 and then somehow find time to practice alone, rehearse with a band, and gig 5 nights a week. All because THEY grew up in a world with a timecard and a lunch bucket. Constantly harping. Calling me during the day to find a way to get around to the subject, telling me about jobs they found in the paper for me. I replied every time "I have a job. I am a musician.", and hung up the phone. Finally I quit talking to them. Both parents are now long since gone but the one sister I have, who hated that I found some level of success in music and she went nowhere in life (having been groomed in the 50s and 60s school of thought where the females were supposed to somehow finish high school, find a man, have babies, and stay home - EXACTLY what she did) I have not spoken to in 16 years. I am so glad that societal paradigm changed, or a lot of intelligent, talented women would have never had the opportunity to bloom.

In my world, college was for the rich kids. I had to go into the Army to get the GI Bill to attend college. I ALMOST fell into the trap where your environment dictates your future, like the inner city teaches now. Kids that see nothing but poverty and unemployment can easily assume that there is no other option, that it never gets any better. As far as your assertion that I felt like I was entitled to encouragement, that is ridiculous. Nobody is entitled to anything. Never were. That is a 2000s word and I came up in the 50s and 60s. However, in the same breath, is not the duty of parents to try and help their kids become all they can be? To give them the space to choose their own path and urge them to excel? I had none of that. Had I bought into their program I would have worked in a dead end job for 45 years and then retired in the lower middle class.

So to boil that all down, as I said before, you can say that in a very real way, my source of encouragement was discouragement, though motivation is a better word.

This is a very interesting thread indeed. My sister is the only one amongst my family who gives me any sort of encouragement... I used to take it personally (as in "my music is no good") but I am over that now and soldier on anyway (as so eloquently mentioned by Bob) because I love it. Everyone has to find their own path in life and you can't rely on other people to bring you happiness.

Edited to add: my daughter does come to the National Arts Festival with me and gives me support there, for which I am very grateful.

Exactly!

"J3, I wasn't "not encouraged". I was DIScouraged. My own family members continued to try and tell me why I needed a job from 9-5 and then somehow find time to practice alone, rehearse with a band, and gig 5 nights a week. All because THEY grew up in a world with a timecard and a lunch bucket. Constantly harping. Calling me during the day to find a way to get around to the subject, telling me about jobs they found in the paper for me. I replied every time "I have a job. I am a musician.", and hung up the phone. Finally I quit talking to them. Both parents are now long since gone but the one sister I have, who hated that I found some level of success in music and she went nowhere in life (having been groomed in the 50s and 60s school of thought where the females were supposed to somehow finish high school, find a man, have babies, and stay home - EXACTLY what she did) I have not spoken to in 16 years. I am so glad that societal paradigm changed, or a lot of intelligent, talented women would have never had the opportunity to bloom.

In my world, college was for the rich kids. I had to go into the Army to get the GI Bill to attend college. I ALMOST fell into the trap where your environment dictates your future, like the inner city teaches now. Kids that see nothing but poverty and unemployment can easily assume that there is no other option, that it never gets any better. As far as your assertion that I felt like I was entitled to encouragement, that is ridiculous. Nobody is entitled to anything. Never were. That is a 2000s word and I came up in the 50s and 60s. However, in the same breath, is not the duty of parents to try and help their kids become all they can be? To give them the space to choose their own path and urge them to excel? I had none of that. Had I bought into their program I would have worked in a dead end job for 45 years and then retired in the lower middle class.

So to boil that all down, as I said before, you can say that in a very real way, my source of encouragement was discouragement, though motivation is a better word"

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And all of that puts you in good company, didn't John Lennons aunt Minnie discourage him as well and tell him to get a proper job.

With a few exceptions I feel there is little money to be made from music, for most of us it is a hobby.

From reading the forum down through the years I can only think of a few people who have made a good living out of music and that partly comes from being good with money, and cutting back on other things in life (their choice of course)

This link makes interesting reading.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/musicians-charity-raises-600000-to-help-struggling-artists-across-the-country-35973833.html

Musiclover

Yep....I've felt that way for a couple decades and have had no desire to meet the protocols necessary to embark upon that demanding, unpredictable path.
One would have to write in the genre that's popular, pay some dues with rejection/disappointment/perseverance and get connected to the industry in other ways.

I do get encouragement from about (4) long time musician friends that actually like my songs but I never get song writing encouragement/commentary or interest from my wife....never have.
If she were asked she'd say she likes my efforts but I'm sure she's just being polite.
She's just uninterested.

As stated above song writing (along with many other creative interests) is a lonely sport.
The way see it no one owes me any comments, encouragement or validation.
But....if someone does generously give a listen and comment....I'm damn grateful and would thank them graciously.

What we do as writers/composers is not for frail egos if we decide to promote ourselves and offer them up for comments/scrutiny on the internet.

We just have to be comfortable with what we do.
So...I would just 'encrourage' all of us to keep writing and strive to improve according to our personal expectations.

A good weekend to all.....