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Stories like this don't really affect us much because I doubt any of us are at this level but it sure sounds bad. It just reinforces what many of us have been saying for years. The money is in touring, not record sales and touring can really suck for lots of reasons. One question I've been wondering about for a while now is what's the definition of an album "sale"? It used to be a physical record or CD, do they still mean that or is a sale considered a paid download of an entire album or what? http://www.showbiz411.com/2018/03/13/record-sales-plunge-as-top-artists-justin-timberlake-u2-even-taylor-swift-sell-fractions-of-previous-numbersBob
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eddie1261
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The best part of the article is where they said that Justin Bieber will not have any new "music" out in 2018. With quotations around the word "music".... Implying "If you can call that music..."
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This article reflects that the public is not paying for commerical music that the likes of Nashville, Sony and other corporate giants are dishing out. Music created to a formula for sales only, nothing creativitely innovative or spectacular, but the same bottled format. But who cares as we're not in that league. Looking forward to where music is going in the future, where truly talented creative artists can express and do original music.
Last edited by Belladonna; 03/14/18 10:35 AM.
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eddie1261
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I wonder how they factor into this thesis that we can now buy just the 2 songs we like from the CD for 99 cents each instead of 15 bucks for 2 good songs and 10 fillers? And everybody may like 2 different "good" songs from a collection. SO wile albums may not be selling, digital downloads give the consumer a la carte options that weren't available 12-15 years ago.
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Meager as it may be, my revenue almost fully switched about four years ago from actual CD sales to download sales and streams.
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That's very true Eddie and that concept has been touted as the great benefit of the current system. BUT...
How does that financially support the artists? Like it or not the "two good songs and 10 fillers" is what paid everybody for the last 75 years.
Now what do we have? You, me and most here are out of the business as a career but I'm certainly sympathetic to those who are in it and what's the future for them? Continually touring to make a living with no income from music sales is no way to live. Not that it's ever been easy but still, it seems like it's really getting beyond ridiculous.
Bob
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Hi
Just wondering whats you guys advice on downloads and/or streaming.
I have a song done that I want to sell but am wondering whats ur experience,I dont have website so I want to put up a single song just as a trial more or less .Any advice is as usual very welcome.The song is mastered to varying lufs levels etc for youtube and I am in the process of getting a simple lyric video done
thanks Hugh
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I wonder why journalists continue to use phrases like “the only way to make money is touring”. They should say “one of the primary ways” rather than “only”.
Artists like Justin Timberlake should look for alternative ways to make money in the face of declining album revenue (which, lets face it, is a relatively easy way to make money for the artists), of which the hard work of touring is one but there are loads of others.
Independent artists are not scared to put in the hard work into things like Patreon, podcasting, youtube, cypto currency services, live streaming, licensing and many many more. A wake up call for these “top” artists for sure.
Edited to add: not to mention online courses. If little old me can get 100 people on my little course (with not much markerting) imagine how many people would sign up for a Taylor Swift online song writing course
Last edited by JoanneCooper; 03/14/18 06:34 PM.
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I've been a live musician all my life. I've done some 'sax for hire' studio work, and have been in groups with local releases, but primarily I'm a live musician.
I've toured, done cruise ships, did house gigs, schlepped one-nighters, and so on. I've made a living, paid off the mortgage, taken vacations here and abroad, and lived a happy life so far.
Musicians have for all of history made their living playing live. In the early days of vinyl, the 78 and 45 RPM disks were primarily a promotion for the artists' live performances. Glenn Miller, The Dorsey Brothers, Artie Shaw, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, and their 'big band singers' didn't make money from their records, but they brought fans out to the shows. The money from recordings came very late for the folks in the big band era.
For a very, very short period of time, musicians made their money via recordings. Probably less than 1% of the total time that there have been musicians. Keep that in mind, making money from your recordings is the exception, not the rule, and that exception seems to be waning. The peak is over. Will it happen again? Who knows?
And for most, recording didn't make money for the artists, just the record company.
I was in a road band that was lucky enough to be the warm-up act for major stars in concert, Four Seasons, Association, Kingsmen, Shirelles, and quite a few others. After warming up for a few Motown acts, Berry Gordy took an interest in us.
At the time Motown had no white groups, and Bob Seger was making number 1 records on Detroit radio. Berry, who was a businessman, not a racist decided he needed a white group to compete.
Our manager hired entertainment lawyers to negotiate. They started at 4 cents a record, with so many guaranteed releases and a bunch of other terms this 19 year old kid didn't understand.
When the last offer came around, it was 2 cents a record. Out of the "2 cent per" royalties Motown was to take inflated recording costs, inflated promotional costs, and inflated distribution costs. They also wanted to control the publishing rights and take half the songwriting credits. And after all that they wanted us to change our name so that they could own the name, hire and fire whoever they wanted, and have 3 or 4 bands with the same name touring.
After all the expenses that Motown wanted to take out of our royalties, our management figured we would have to sell more than a million copies of our first LP just to end up not owing Motown any money. And in the late 60s a million copies from a new group was unheard of.
When our management tried to get better terms, they quit talking to us, and picked their second choice, The Sunliners with the Motown owned new name "Rare Earth".
The exorbitant fees for recording, distribution, plus publishing rights and other record company profits coupled with the low pennies per sale to the artist is the main reason why the vast majority of single artists and groups have been one-hit-wonders or one-CD-wonders. They became big stars for a while and never made enough to pay back the debt to the record company - who made a fortune on the recordings.
Want to do another record? You need to pay your back fees that your royalties didn't cover first. One-hit-wonder land.
But if you had a number one hit on Billboard, you got better gigs if you could work out a deal to keep your name and pay part of your live performance money to the record company.
Sure, there are the exceptions. If your first recording goes viral, you become an 'automatic' and can negotiate better terms for your next album. The 1% or so of the people that made hits got to do this and became megastars.
The rest of us make our living playing live, in front of an audience. That could be touring, or playing singles clubs, yacht/country clubs, cruise ships, show clubs, Elk's/Moose lodges, Nursing Homes or anything in-between.
Most of the money is not in touring, but all kinds of playing live in front of an appreciative audience, and other than a short period of time when recordings were king, it has been this way for all of history.
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eddie1261
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How does that financially support the artists? It doesn't "support" them, but it gives them SOME sales revenue. If the a la carte purchase option benefits anybody it benefits the consumer. In my case, as a notoriously cheap Slovenian, they can have my 2 song purchase or I won't buy. So from a 10 song CD offering, they can have 20% of a CD sale or 100% of nothing, because I am not buying 8 garbage tracks to get the 2 I want. And let's not even open the can of worms that is pirating....
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eddie1261
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I'll be honest with you Hugh, get it out to as many stream sources as you can. CD Baby, Reverb Nation and whatever the rest of them are, but be realistic about it and expect little more than "friends and family" sales. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody is searching the internet hardly waiting for your next release. There are a million of you out there who think they have the next White Christmas. There are hundreds of you on THIS forum!! If your song is that great, more power to you and good luck with it. Do you sing at the level of a Steve Perry or a Michael Buble (depending on your genre)? If the answer is no, shop it any way you can to people the world knows about already. You could try sending it to college radio stations and hope for airplay there, and possibly someone connected to a major performer will hear it and contact you. Do you gig? Play it live a few times and see how the crowd reaction is. Just for perspective, I think I have written some GREAT songs. The problem is, nobody that matters has ever heard them, which in a way is a good thing, because I can keep living in my delusional state that I write great songs. 
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eddie1261
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One other thing to factor into this is that equation is that studio time used to run into hundreds of thousands for an album. Digital recording helped ease that pain. A bad patch can be punched in and fixed now rather than having to run the song all the way from the head if there was a flub. Labels used to front bands $250,000 or more to record the next album. That wasn't a gift, so the first $250,000 in sales paid for the studio time. Then the label ate the rest. The labels want the publishing rights, and half the writing royalties.
I saw an interview with Dolly Parton. When she wrote "I Will Always Love You" (which I hate, but that doesn't matter), she got a call from Col Tom Parker because Elvis wanted to do the song. Parker said that the usual deal with Elvis was that he got half the publishing. Dolly dug her heels in and said "Well we have a problem there. I keep my publishing or we have nothing to talk about." And Elvis never did the song.
Now many of, if not most of, the bands not in that rarefied air of major act, self publish. One less layer of lawyer involved that way. Most now also self record and self publish. Those recording budgets are LONG gone for lower tier acts. And the business, like most of the world, is more corrupt than ever.
I think it is Matt who is on Spotify or one of those stream services, and he may be willing to enlighten us, but the last thing I saw I think it was some ridiculous figure like .0004 cents per stream. THEY make a lot of money from sponsors, but THEY also keep most of it.
The musician has to be happy with patiently adding up nickels, dimes and quarters. Enough Xs and Ys can add up to a nice Z over time.
There is money to be made somewhere, but it is almost funny to read articles in different places where one says "You don't make any money on record sales anymore. You make money touring." And the next one says "You don't make money touring anymore. You make money on record sales." Another will say "There's lots of money to be made in merchandising." Those people really need to talk and get the story straight! The "you and me" level artists don't tour, don't sell records, and nobody wants a t-shirt or cap with my ugly mug on it, so merchandising is not the key.
Also remember that "money" is relative. $1000 means something very different to a millionaire than it doe to a guy living in a refrigerator box on the street. I remember seeing Joe Walsh say "You can't make any money in music anymore." Well Joe, maybe what is "any money" to YOU is very different than the rest of us. When the Eagles last played Cleveland, the cheap seats were $200 a ticket. They played Quicken Loans arena, which holds 21,000 for concerts. It was sold out. Even if ALL the seats were $200, that is $4,200,000 in ticket sales alone. And I am thinking a lot of people bought the $60 t-shirts. This from a has-been, hanger-on type act. And I don't even remember when their last new work was released!! I didn't (wouldn't) go, but I was told that there was a half dozen Henley tunes, a half dozen Walsh tunes, a couple from Tim Schmidt.... that's like half the show. So for that $200 people got half Eagles songs and the other half solo artist material.
So, which part of that triangle is the money coming from? Sales, touring, or merch?
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Hi Eddie,
Thanks for the reply.What im looking to do is just to have a place to refer poeple too if they want the song.Dont sing dance or chew and I dont go with girls that do!lol Cd baby seems to be a good place where I can just put my song up and send people to for a download,My expectations are fairly low but id like to put it out there .Should I register the song before uploading or is it enough that its going to a recognised distributer like Cd Baby for the first time I wonder?
thanks Hugh
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Hi Eddie,
Thanks for the reply.What im looking to do is just to have a place to refer poeple too if they want the song.Dont sing dance or chew and I dont go with girls that do!lol Cd baby seems to be a good place where I can just put my song up and send people to for a download,My expectations are fairly low but id like to put it out there .Should I register the song before uploading or is it enough that its going to a recognised distributer like Cd Baby for the first time I wonder?
thanks Hugh Hugh, May I suggest you look at +++ SoundCloud +++ , +++ SoundClick +++ and +++ BandLab +++ then choose which one you like best. I'm a member of all three. Of the three I like SoundCloud the best. SoundCloud is easy to upload songs to, SoundCloud lets you upload wav files and has an attractive and easy to use player. SounClick has a much simpler user interface but seems to delete content without warning. BandLab is built around music collaboration so if you want to collaborate with others you can find others with the same interest you have. If you want something more private, try +++ 4Shared.com +++ . 15 GBs of free cloud storage. You provide links to the people you want to hear your music. It uses a browser media player or people can select to download the music file. Of all the choices I've listed I'd start with SoundCloud. It does what you want, is free and many people have heard of it. The bad news is it is losing money (so is SoundClick but it's no longer a major player like it use to be) so you can never tell when the site might close; but it hasn't so far. CD Baby, Bandicamp and ReverbNation are structured more for supporting acts that sell music, merchandise and tour. There's just a lot of features you'll likely never use.
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eddie1261
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Should I register the song before uploading What do you mean by register? Copyright? If so, do not upload it ANYWHERE until you do that. If you do, you will have a real tough time proving it was stolen if it ever becomes a hit.
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Hi Jim,
Thanks Ive looked at soundcloud and someone said you can add a buy button to ur account is that right? h
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Hi Bob,
Love ur story and the norton styles h
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Hi Eddie,
yeah copyright where is the best place to send a song .I know technically its copyrighted when its made but as thats hard to prove ,what are the best steps to take?thanks in advance hugh
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Hugh,
Where do you live? This Forum is an International community and the copyright law is not the same around the world.
Keith
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Hi Keith ,Thanks for reply, Im living in Ireland.I realize that the copyright law is different and I suppose thats what makes it difficult.I have been looking at this site and that appears to be what I want .What do you think?My only question which I emailed them was ,What happens if the artist singing the song is a demo singer as in my case,should I send in the song with me singing (trying) https://www.songrite.eu/
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-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAK Sets On Sale Now - Until May 15, 2026!
All of our XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs are on sale until May 15th, 2026!
It's the perfect time to expand your Band-in-a-Box® style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs. These additional styles for Band-in-a-Box® offer a wide range of genres designed to fit seamlessly into your projects. Each style is professionally arranged and mixed, helping enhance your songs while saving you time.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-10 includes 1,000 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 includes 3,700 styles (and 35 MIDI styles)!
The XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs are not included in any Band-in-a-Box® package.
The XPro Styles PAKs 1-10 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
The Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the Xtra Styles PAK Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version as they require the RealTracks included in the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box today with XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAK Sets!
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