PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Question for Mac and others regarding amp simulators

From another thread:

Quote:

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Best advice concerning the use of virtual amplifier simulators I ever got:

"Stick to the models of amps that you KNOW from using the real thing onstage."

Mac

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So, what advice for those who have little experience using the real thing? I have relatively recently cast myself in the role of electric lead player. Trouble is, I come from an acoustic and rhythm background and have next to no experience using guitar amps in the real world. Never had my hands on a Marshall, a Boogie, a Soldano, or other exotics.

I have a Roland VG-88 V-Guitar which is loaded with guitar, amp, and effect simulations. So, how best to get the most out of the palette available to me? I lust after the tones of Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Carlos Santana, and others (always with the goal of creating my own signature sound), but have only been able to go so far looking up the 'settings of the stars' on the interwebz. Help me, Obi-Wan!

R.

Other than experience with the real amp, I don't know.

But there are some things one can do to make the situation better for their home recording.

The problem: A lot of these simulators can be set to do certain things in certain ways that the "real McCoy" doesn't do at all. For example, there may be instances where the amount of gain applied in a gainstage somewhere in the signal chain can be set to way higher than the target analog amp could do. And the digital simulation algo can.

The solution may be to stick to the default settings for an amp, tweak knobs, but not to extremes on any knob. Extreme settings in Audio are typically an indicator that something else is wrong somewhere anyway. Ex: The guy who connects his guitar pickup output (passive electromagnetic) to the Line Input of the soundcard simply because both are 1/4" connects. But since he hears something when doing that, he turns the soundcard's software Recording fader all the way up -- and it just barely reaches the -6dB mark on the VU meters, if that. But since he hears the sound, he goes ahead and starts recording, blissfully unaware that the situation is both an Impedance mismatch and a gainstage nightmare.

One doesn't necessarily have to know the way the real target amp sounds and works in order to turn in a good performance if one uses good common sense about the settings and such. -- And compares their results to known good sounding reference recordings of the same sound whenever they can, tweaking their results to duplicate the sound from those pro reference recordings.

"Common Sense" in this case can go a long way. I wouldn't invoke a Rectifier Boutique amp on a recording at all, simply because I have never played the kind of music that is typically played through one anyway. Sure I'd mess around with it, though. But his old R&B, Jazz, old fart Rock player wouldn't know too much about shreddin' anyway, so how would I know what was right or not?

There is another aspect. The very creative might be able to take an amp sim they know very little about and create a whole new sound with it. I expect to hear that on recordings and it is likely already happening.

Even with the real McCoy, lots of reference listening is in order anyway, though. You have to have a place to stand. The guitarist who is still working at trying to identify notes and chords relative to the tonic is likely to not be listening for things like the harmonic series, tonal depth, etc. -- even though they bandy about the word Tone all over the place. Lots of folks who play have no real idea of the physics behind the thing at all. Like the kid I heard in a music store who was telling his friend about his father's "little tube amp that was only 5 watts but they were "tube watts" and how it had but two knobs, Volume and Tone and how he liked to dime both because on the Tone Control, he "wanted all the Tone there is". heh Tone. Mo' Tone. Dearly Beloved We Are Gathered Here Tone. I could have explained about the Butterworth filter in that Fender Champ, how the shelving is done at 6db/octave and that the Tone knob affects the treble at a certain freq. point, but it is not a brick wall because it is analog and that 6dB/octave is a very musical place to be when designing the filter and that the Butterworth analog filtering circuit is simply one of the most musical sounding ways to do it, etc. etc. But it would have been wasted breath...



--Mac

Ryszard,

Mac's advice is well taken if you've had the real thing. I never did. Doesn't stop my from listening for differences in those amps in live and recorded settings.

I probably can't get all of the nuance out of an amp simulator as someone who has owned the real deal.

The V-Guitar is probably too complicated to start out with. My boss at my new job has one. Ridiculous the amount of settings one can change in that thing. I was at his place one evening and we never really got around to playing music, but fiddled with all the cool settings. Cool if that is the goal.

I would recommend instead simply getting one of the 'cover DVD' simulators - I got a cut-down version of of both Amplitube and Guitar Rig.

Plenty of power in there for me to try out the various amps. At least with Santana, if you use a 'California/Mesa Boogie' style amp with humbucking pickups, you can get a long way to the tone, rather than a single coil pickup through a Fender style amp. Then you gotta be able to play!

Mac and I typed at the same time. Same point.

Ryszard

I visited this page http://www.musiciansnews.com/guitars/97/vg88_vguitar_system.shtml

I don't have the VG-88 and my music base has been acoustic as well. The promises of the VG-88 sound . . .well . . . promising - but how much depends on the guitarists playing style to get the most out of the unit. There is no modeler out there that's gonna turn me into Eric Clapton - but I am curious. Using a modeler may definitely allow you to create your own sound.

So are you using an acoustic to access the VG-88? Are you using the GK-2A pickup mentioned on the link above? Wouldn't your "lead" playing style have a lot to do with the output sound produced using the VG-88? Could you achieve the modern lead effects using an acoustic with medium strings as opposed to extra light strings used by many of the great players. Just some thoughts. But you've got me curious Ryszard this is the first I've heard of the VG-88.

Ian

My VG-88 is the favorite Thing I have ever owned. It is way cool, and it is an expanding concept--meaning that answering one question raises two more. I intentionally got lost in it for a while, then settled in for a couple of working voices that would allow me to express what I'm trying to say. That's a moving target, so it's still changing a bit over time.

In terms of basic guitar sound, I consider myself a Strat player. My controller is an 80s-vintage Ibanez Roadstar II which is a very decent copy. Interestingly, I didn't get the sound I was looking for out of it until I tweaked it for the GK-3 pickup and monitored my progress through a small Fender amp. By that time it was academic. (It was amazingly good, though.) Since I went virtual, I hardly ever listen to the analog sound.

My two basic (emulated) electric lead voices are a Strat using the neck and middle pickups running through a Boogie amp, and a Les Paul (don't recall which pup/s) through a Marshall. All my amps are set to get as much sustain with as little grind as possible. I set the knob on the GK to serve as a tone control for those patches. I may run it full open for a cutting sound, or close it down for a darker voice when I'm feeling more like Carlitos. It's equally effective with single coils and humbuckers. I use the Strat sound most of the time, though. Eventually I'll get around to recording it and let you all hear it. (Actually, there are hours and hours of it--locked up on a friend's DAW. I am hoping to get some mixes out of our sessions over the holidays, which I'll post on my indabamusic page.)

R.

Fascinating - initially I was wondering if you were going to an acoustic lead into Carlitos. Gotcha now. But would it have that capability?
I used to work with a guitarist in the 70s who had a Les Paul and got great sound from a twin reverb - I suppose the Twin is now old tech.
Enjoy Ryszard - will be anxious to hear the results.

Ian

i picked up the original VG-8 a few years back, and after going thru the same paces of rolling thru the patches and having fun, immediately took the thing out on a gig.

As it happened, the gig was a sub for a guitarist with a bigband.

You should have seen those old guys in the bigband when I showed up and unpacked a Fender Stratocaster. With the (gasp!) whammy bar still hangin' down, no less.

Then you should have seen their faces again when the thing sounded just like a Gibson L-5 archtop jazzbox all night long. Thru the VG-8, of course, and my little Polytone Mini Brute II amp.

Priceless.

Laid back and chunked those inside chords just like it was an archtop.

Some of 'em are probably still telling other musicians that they heard this one cat who could make one of them rock 'n roll planks sound like a real guitar LOL!

Point being that you don't have to use or even know how to use every patch in the thing in order to get a lot of work done.

Although I don't think those old you-know-whats in that particular bigband knew what was happening and the fella never called me again to sub guitar.

No matter how experienced their ears, the eyes still take precedent.

It didn't "look" right.

To them.


--Mac

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