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Mostly for singer-songwriter types, but it also applies to lead instrument players, I think.
What comes first for you, music or lyrics (or backing or licks, for instrumentalists)? Just as importantly, why does that work for you? Maybe almost as importantly, why does it sometimes not work for you?
I may jump in later if this thread garners any interest.
Last edited by Tangmo; 09/24/18 01:51 PM.
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There have been several threads on this topic this year.
In brief, for me, most of the time the initial idea for the chorus and the basic chord progression comes in a blinding flash and I reach for the tape recorder or phone to spit it out, singing the lyrics. I know what progression I am singing. That is easy to decode.
At that point I am 75% done.
Then I will work on refining the lyrics, then the music (or the reverse process) and then bring them back together for a final polish.
I cannot write music separate from the lyric idea. They are like two buckets that get pulled out of the same well at the same time, sloshing all over the sides.
That is the best way I can explain it. They are intertwined from the beginning.
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I am not a writer of songs albeit I have assisted others. However when it comes to adding bits when playing guitar it just happens. If it is just fills or a lead break it just happens and feels right.
If you have to think about it you have usually missed it. By that I mean, by the time you think about what you are going to play the moment has gone. It just happens, feel I think is the word. It is similar to looking at the fret board. If you have to look, then decide where to put your finger, well, the moment has gone and mistakes occur.
My thoughts.
Tony
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What comes first for you, music or lyrics (or backing or licks, for instrumentalists)? Personally... I've written songs from all creative approaches you note above. First, and most important to me is choice of subject matter. Once subject matter is determined I try to choose chords/arrangement that fit the mood of the 'subject'. Then....the hard part for me....fleshing out coherent, well thought out lyrical continuity, adhering to the story and avoiding vapid cliches (or subjects). It could take me weeks to flesh it all out lyrically. Song writing does not come easy for me but I am able to plug along and finish songs to my satisfaction. Carry on.....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 09/24/18 06:24 PM.
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I just ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon. I'll let you know which came first!
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Depends on the song for me - sometimes lyrics will come to mind that inspire a tune, sometimes I'll think of a tune and need to force some lyrics to go along. The process changes from song to song, personally.
Cheers,
Deryk
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I find it very difficult to work from lyrics to a melody. Others prefer that workflow.
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You have opened up two different concepts..... one is songwriting, the other is playing parts.
To me, playing parts in a song is not the same thing as writing the song..... yeah it takes some creative effort and skill but it's not the same as actually creating the melody and the lyrics. Most often, musical fills and solos, as you mentioned, are improvised on the spot. No thought is given to them..... although I would argue that point too. As I'm playing a lead solo, I am thinking in an abstract way of what I want to say next.... and if I played that part a second time, it would not be the same as the first.... so it's an ongoing evolution. Only when I put the parts down in a project do they solidify.
Writing the song..... that takes some creative thought, and anyone who says differently is lying to you. To find creative ways to say something that's been sung about a thousand times before, without saying it exactly the same way, takes some creative thinking. Same thing with the melody.
But to answer the questions...... I personally tend to write both together as David alluded too in his post with the two buckets. It's a process of getting a groove that feels right, throw in an interesting idea, and start moving in the direction of a song. Often the lyrics and melody just kind of flow in a Zen-like way.... quickly, and effortlessly. However, I then will often spend time reworking and refining them both into a more polished structure.
That's how I mostly work. I have worked with writers who gave me partial ideas, or even "completed" lyrics which I then disassembled and worked on..... to end up with something that hopefully resembled a song. My song page is littered with the results of such experiments in musical mayhem.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Writing the song..... that takes some creative thought, and anyone who says differently is lying to you. To find creative ways to say something that's been sung about a thousand times before, without saying it exactly the same way, takes some creative thinking. Same thing with the melody. Yep....my personal imperatives when it comes to song writing. Back to topic.....
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I just ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon. I'll let you know which came first! Hahahaha! Good one Don. Amazon to the rescue 
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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For my roommate it was always the lyrics that came first when she was younger, but as she got older it would be the melody. I never really thought about it much before, but it's kind of like the chicken or the egg, isn't it? Thought provoking for sure.
Cheers,
Ember
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Like as has been said, it doesn't work for me to write a lyric without some melodic and rhythmic sense to it. I'd go so far as to say, if I were to write without that I wouldn't even be writing a song lyric at all. I'd be at best writing something I hoped would one day be a song lyric.
I did just one collaboration where I had a lyric more or less finished when my friend sent me a "backing". It fit the lyric I had been writing so well, that I abandoned the melody and rhythm I'd been writing to and took a new melody from the chords since the rhythm worked so well.
Some collabs started with me sending a very simple (even an a capella) demo with instruction on how many verses, choruses, etc I needed. Rinse and repeat X number of times.
Most other collabs have started with a fleshed out backing to which I was able to write lyrics and a vocal melody. Even with these, I couldn't write a lyric without paying close attention to the melody arising and the space and spots to hang syllables on. I miss sometimes, but that's only because I tried in the first place.
Sometimes with BIAB I can get so caught up in grooves and changes that melody and lyric fall by the wayside, if they were ever considered in the first place. I find it no more likely that I'll ever be able to come up with an actual song than if someone else had written the piece.
This is similar to the offer I put up on a "backing" lately*. One of your own has communicated to me that he may be turning that into a proper song. I know exactly what he'll have to do to accomplish that listenably. It won't be writing a lyric and forcing it on the piece. It will be listening, feeling, maybe even calculating what he needs to do and doing it. I won't say who it is, but I've heard a number of his songs and he is mightily up to it.
When I'm writing by myself, as others have said, things come as a package. A line or two with a melody and rhythm leading to another line or two, leading ultimately to a ready-to-produce song outline at minimum. I'm not saying that in the whole process changes can't be made along the way...even radical changes. But it has to start "together".
I've also found that melodies tend to be stronger when I'm writing by myself. I don't exactly know why that is, but I think it probably has something to do with the "hookiness" of a backing I may receive. When the song is still bare and spare, imagination can work and it can go where it wants to go. Not as much when working with someone else's backing, though some backings are just more melodically "hooky" and suggestive.
Just as I am so-far incapable of writing music to words on paper, I would never send a "lyric" to a song I wrote and produced and say, "Sing this over this" with no further input from me. As a songwriter, part of my job is to demo the song. I have to carry my own water, even though my bucket is rusty. It takes a talent I don't have, and would have to recognize in another, to do otherwise. Melody is malleable. Lyrics can be polished. But "phrasing" is more gift than skill and more art than craft. This makes the "practice" of writing both words and music more-or-less together valuable to me.
"Phrasing" is where I think there is the most overlap between lead players and singer/songwriters. I've learned a lot in many years of internet indieness from guitar players. It's not always the number of licks in a phrase (many OR few) that makes it "good". It's mostly where/when they land, what they add musically, and then how long they stay there.
I've had a mantra for any number of would-be, scared-to-be, and wannabe lyric writers. "If it sings good, it is good." Of course you want to avoid trite cliches (except when you don't) and you want to make sense (except when you don't). But people who may not "buy" your poetry will "buy" your song if your lyric "sings" good.
I'm quite proud of most of my lyrics. Of course, the worst time to spot an opportunity to do better is after you've recorded and produced them, I've found. LOL. But what I am most proud of isn't their "cleverness" or "message", but how they fit the song's rhythm.
Anyway...there is no right or wrong way, or rule that says this must follow that. Amazon can send either one first, but they'd save postage if they sent them at the same time. :-)
*PS. I've got a few more of those somewhat-less-than-song backing tracks made with BIAB I'd love to post up for anybody wanting to take a stab at writing/singing/melodically playing. Maybe I'll make a special folder at my music hosting site for those.
Last edited by Tangmo; 09/25/18 05:21 PM.
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Like as has been said, it doesn't work for me to write a lyric without some melodic and rhythmic sense to it. I'd go so far as to say, if I were to write without that I wouldn't even be writing a song lyric at all. I'd be at best writing something I hoped would one day be a song lyric.
I did just one collaboration where I had a lyric more or less finished when my friend sent me a "backing". It fit the lyric I had been writing so well, that I abandoned the melody and rhythm I'd been writing to and took a new melody from the chords since the rhythm worked so well.
Some collabs started with me sending a very simple (even an a capella) demo with instruction on how many verses, choruses, etc I needed. Rinse and repeat X number of times.
Most other collabs have started with a fleshed out backing to which I was able to write lyrics and a vocal melody. Even with these, I couldn't write a lyric without paying close attention to the melody arising and the space and spots to hang syllables on. I miss sometimes, but that's only because I tried in the first place.
Sometimes with BIAB I can get so caught up in grooves and changes that melody and lyric fall by the wayside, if they were ever considered in the first place. I find it no more likely that I'll ever be able to come up with an actual song than if someone else had written the piece.
This is similar to the offer I put up on a "backing" lately*. One of your own has communicated to me that he may be turning that into a proper song. I know exactly what he'll have to do to accomplish that listenably. It won't be writing a lyric and forcing it on the piece. It will be listening, feeling, maybe even calculating what he needs to do and doing it. I won't say who it is, but I've heard a number of his songs and he is mightily up to it.
When I'm writing by myself, as others have said, things come as a package. A line or two with a melody and rhythm leading to another line or two, leading ultimately to a ready-to-produce song outline at minimum. I'm not saying that in the whole process changes can't be made along the way...even radical changes. But it has to start "together".
I've also found that melodies tend to be stronger when I'm writing by myself. I don't exactly know why that is, but I think it probably has something to do with the "hookiness" of a backing I may receive. When the song is still bare and spare, imagination can work and it can go where it wants to go. Not as much when working with someone else's backing, though some backings are just more melodically "hooky" and suggestive.
Just as I am so-far incapable of writing music to words on paper, I would never send a "lyric" to a song I wrote and produced and say, "Sing this over this" with no further input from me. As a songwriter, part of my job is to demo the song. I have to carry my own water, even though my bucket is rusty. It takes a talent I don't have, and would have to recognize in another, to do otherwise. Melody is malleable. Lyrics can be polished. But "phrasing" is more gift than skill and more art than craft. This makes the "practice" of writing both words and music more-or-less together valuable to me.
"Phrasing" is where I think there is the most overlap between lead players and singer/songwriters. I've learned a lot in many years of internet indieness from guitar players. It's not always the number of licks in a phrase (many OR few) that makes it "good". It's mostly where/when they land, what they add musically, and then how long they stay there.
I've had a mantra for any number of would-be, scared-to-be, and wannabe lyric writers. "If it sings good, it is good." Of course you want to avoid trite cliches (except when you don't) and you want to make sense (except when you don't). But people who may not "buy" your poetry will "buy" your song if your lyric "sings" good.
I'm quite proud of most of my lyrics. Of course, the worst time to spot an opportunity to do better is after you've recorded and produced them, I've found. LOL. But what I am most proud of isn't their "cleverness" or "message", but how they fit the song's rhythm.
Anyway...there is no right or wrong way, or rule that says this must follow that. Amazon can send either one first, but they'd save postage if they sent them at the same time. :-)
*PS. I've got a few more of those somewhat-less-than-song backing tracks made with BIAB I'd love to post up for anybody wanting to take a stab at writing/singing/melodically playing. Maybe I'll make a special folder at my music hosting site for those.
Tangmo, What a great synopsis! I especially liked your use of the word 'malleable.' Often our songs must be beaten into shape!
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For songs with lyrics, it’s almost always lyrics first for me. Or at least lyrical ideas. Having had just a tiny bit of formal songwriting training and then a yearly workshop/challenge, this has become disciplined activity for me. And it’s almost always lyrics first. Music next. Lyrics editing next. Recording. Then mixing and editing the recording.
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For songs with lyrics, it’s almost always lyrics first for me. Or at least lyrical ideas. Having had just a tiny bit of formal songwriting training and then a yearly workshop/challenge, this has become disciplined activity for me. And it’s almost always lyrics first. Music next. Lyrics editing next. Recording. Then mixing and editing the recording. As best I understand it, that's the Elton John school of song-writing. I wish I could do it, but I just can't. I guess I'm not as "musical" as I need to be to do that. I'm always interested to get a glimpse under the hood of "process".
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Tangmo,
I really enjoyed that. Thanks for posting.
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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