PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production What to do about the drums

I am working on a blues/soul project. I am starting the tracks with BB/RB, doing as much as I can, then taking them to a friend's studio. There are a few reasons. His software is a little better and he knows it better. I can do vocals there much easier. His production ideas are good. Finally, he understands mastering.

A couple of the songs have stops and pushes. RD's don't always handle those well. Yes, I know how to enter them, but some RD's just won't comply. In addition, I need some more fills. So it seems my choices are to use a real drummer for those songs or buy a drum package to play the midi parts. The price of two sessions with a drummer (if I get a bargain) and a software package will be about the same. And recording with a drummer is no easy thing.

So here's my question. Do you have any plugins you recommend. EZ Drummer looks as if it has some good features. There are also some free software packages; anyone have a favorite one of those? Just for clarification, I don't need a hundred variations of each drum. I need a couple of bass drums, a few good snares, some toms, a decent crash and ride, open and close HH.

Any ideas are appreciated.

2b

If the cost is the same.... Personally I would go with software because you can use it from that point on. And you don't have to deal with drummers and their personalities. Also miking a kit isn't a fun thing.


I'm not really up to date on the newest and best drum software so I'm offering some generalities.

With drum software there are two ways... well 3 ways to work.
1 is obviously, using midi and playing it or mousing it in yourself. Downside is you gotta be able to play and understand drums to a certain degree to get realistic, believable tracks.

2 is using loops. You simply select your loops from a bunch of intro's, fills, etc and pop them into the song. I've heard some pretty nicely down and very impressive drum tracks done this way. A bit of time to learn the software and you're golden.

3 is using an AI drummer like Jamstix. It can and will compose a workable part on it's own, given the parameters you select. There's a level of competency required to get this working well.

I use EZDrummer2 here quite often, great program.

Check out my latest song if you want to hear them, it's a 6/8 blues up on the user showcase called "How can you Talk?"

EDIT: I should add that you can download a demo version of EZDrummer2 if you want to try it out.

Drums are the major hangup for lots of home studio folks. They are critical and are mixed hot, in your face. Two good software programs have already been mentioned, EZD and Jamstix. There are others, Studio Drummer for example. There are a ton of vids on YT for all of them. You won't pick it up in a few hours, devote most of a weekend to viewing the how-to vids. Then of course it's what DAW software will you use to host either one?

Real Band can do that and you already have it. But some drum software is exclusive to one software package like Studio Drummer is part of Kontakt meaning you pay about $150 as an add on library but you have to already own a full version of Kontakt which costs from $500-$1,000. DAW software like Cubase, Pro Tools, Studio One etc have drum software built in too but of course you're now buying a full DAW for $400-800, learning it then learning how their drum software works.

Someone mentioned loops. People have been using loops for pretty decent drum tracks for 20 years. There are tons of loop libraries out there and some are free. Biab and RB both work well with loops. You can also take your Real Drum track and do audio editing on it. If you need a fill on bar 15 you can drop a loop in there and EQ it to match the sound of the RD. You can find midi drum tracks and find some good midi fills. The midi can trigger a drum synth for playback only and there are some free drum synths around including a decent sounding drum kit. Of course all of this has a learning curve that you just have to dig in and figure out.

I feel your pain, you know what you want in your head but to really get it you have to make a serious investment. The beauty and frustration of Biab/RB is all the RT/RD's that gets you "almost there" but not quite. Getting over the hump for that last bit can double your cost. Or more.

If you're really serious about this and can afford it then buy a well known and tested software package now and go for it. Trying to do it on the cheap can work to get started but you'll wind up buying the good stuff anyway so you may as well do it now. IF you're really serious.

One final thought. Audio production is a serious industry and people get 4 year college degrees in it. You're not going to get proficient in a month, 6 months or even a year. It takes time but like the old saying goes. a journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step.

Bob

Then of course... Sonar is now free.

The free Sonar Herb mentioned has a GREAT built in drummer called Session Drummer that you can as Herb says "mouse your way through"--that is play the virtual kit with a mouse-- to create realistic fills and even secondary tracks (or main tracks if you use no Real Drums.)

I use it all the time and it is super easy. You load a style and kit--like Old Zep Wet Kit--choose what type of fills or patterns you want, then just click on those while the song is playing, recording to a track.

Mixed in with Real Track you will never notice the paste if you EQ them the same.

I think it took all of a half an hour to learn. It really is not that hard at all.

I have a version of Cakewalk that downloaded for free. Is that what you mean by Sonar?

And, if so, how do you find Session Drummer? I looked at my file directory and I don't see anything that says that.

Thanks to you and to everyone who responded.

2b

1. Open the Bandlab Download Assistant application.

2. Left click on the down arrow to open a sub menu and select: "Install Add-ons".

3. Left click on the checkbox for "Studio Instruments Suite".

4. Select "Install".

Thanks, Jim.

I clicked on the Bandlab Assistant, found the down arrow, found Install Addons. A box came up showing the addons. Problem is nothing happens when I click Install.

Maybe they don't give you everything on the free version.

2b

Former Jamstix user and now lover of EZ Drummer. It’s just easier to use for usable results

I just installed addons and it worked ok. I almost gave up too as it took awhile until something happened, then a very faint grey flashing download information appeared which could easily be overlooked. Try again.

Thanks, Rockstar. I am going to download the free Jamstix and play with it a bit. But, I have a feeling that I am going to go the same route you did in the end.

2b

I mainly use Steven Slates drums,

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/steven-slate-drums-platinum-40-software-download/h97994000000000?pfm=item_page.rr1|ClickCP

or sometimes addictive drums,

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/xln-audio-addictive-drums-2-software-download?rNtt=addictive%20drums&index=1

Groovemonkee makes some of the best MIDI drum loops and they are in most all drum program formats:

https://groovemonkee.com/collections/midi-loops

good luck.

For me, Jamstix was a stepping stone on the road to better drums.

I started by mousing the notes into a midi sequencer. Worked but it was too mechanical and stiff. Not realistic.

Jamstix was AI so it created it's own track automatically by following the audio. However, editing and really tweeking it was a learning curve of it's own. And I only got a few rungs up the ladder compared to some of the folks using it. But it was a more realistic drummer, and it was automatic.

Real Tracks made it even easier and they sounded more realistic since they are in fact a real drummer under it all. Down side to the RT's is they are all essentially in one track so if you want to bring put the snare or the kick for example, you are limited to doing it via EQ and selective compression. It would be nice to have the drum RT's available in multi-track mode. I have used midi and Jamstix at times to fill in the creative gaps left by RT's.

Groove Monkey free package has some decent loops. I use them some times in Reaper. The folder names and file names give good clues to what they are including, and estimated tempo they might be used for.
I also created a folder that holds all of the Power Tracks midi drum files, the one used for "Load Scrap". These work well for starters but lack fills and rolls.
Here's a short cut you might use. Think of a blues song that is similar to the one you are creating. Download a free midi file from the internet. Drag it into your DAW. Mute or delete unwanted tracks. Make edits in the Piano Roll/Midi Editor. Sometimes I use a midi controller keyboard to manually record my midi fills and other parts onto a new track. Then I mute the adjacent sections on the original track until I feel confident to cut them out and paste in my fills and other parts. Many of the midi files I find for free sound rather cheezy when played back through Windows Media player (computer synth) but when played back using my hardware synth or even SI Drums that came with CakeWalk they come alive better depending on how the file was made. Keep in mind that SI drums is not a full GM/GM2 or GS synth. So it does not have things like shakers and cowbells and many others voices. If those instruments are in the original file you will see them but not hear them. If I feel they are important I copy just those onto another track and choose a separate synth, TTS-1 or hardware for example, just for those instruments.
Or, load a similar blues song .wav file into Band In A Box's Audio Chord Wizard. Let it interpret the chords which lays out the song in BIAB chord sheet. Mute all instruments except for drums. Choose a BIAB blues style, midi or Real Drum with an accompanying midi style. Place style change markers where you want drum rolls. Export to you DAW...
Well, there's some ideas anyhow.

I used to use drum loops from Beta Monkey and was pretty happy with them. I got some from Drums on Demand, but thought the song sets were a bit too limited and processed for my taste. YMMV - it's been a while since I've looked at what they offered.

Eventually I got enough money and moved on to Toontrack's EZDrummer and stuck with the canned tracks that came with it.

Then came EZDrummer 2 with the ability to edit tracks simply by dialing the complexity of particular instruments in and out, which is really cool.

I'm sure you know that they've got Southern Soul and Blues kits, along with MIDI tracks. If you don't need to sound exactly like classic hardware, they also sell the MIDI grooves from the Blues and a different Soul Grooves MIDI. (Based on this comment, you'd probably need to get additional grooves even if you got their Southern Soul EZX).

You might also have a look at RealiDrums to see if it fits your workflow. Like EZDrummer, you can dial in the complexity of canned grooves to customize it. Unlike EZDrummer, it comes with a boatload of different drumkits, so you can really customize the kit.

I haven't been able to play with it, and I'm curious if anyone on the forum has. I know that Jim Fogel was looking at them, but don't know if he ever took the plunge.

Couple things about RB/realdrums, and they have been mentioned before.

1. In RB you can generate many takes of the drummer experimenting with different variations (image below) .. sometimes what you are looking for is in a different variation, and if you don't experiment you'll never find it (same with recording a real drummer, except you get to explain what you want with a real drummer), though what you get will vary, much as it does with RealDrums variations. I have been known to generate many realdrum tracks and paste them together and sometimes those variations over a given A/B section make a big difference.

2. At the end of many of the actual RealDrum wma files (or wav files if using the audio version) you'll find actual recordings of many of the drum hits on their own, these can be edited to be 'samples' which makes using a sample player to create your own fill (or add to one) an inviting option for editing since they sound like the same drums, *if* you like the rest of the RealDrums you have generated.

If you are genuinely not happy with the generated RealDrums, well that's a whole 'nother problem and how to proceed depends on a lot; your abilities with MIDI, your abilities with cut/paste (or slice/dice) of audio .. your ability to manipulate another drum generator .. lots of variables.

2bSolo,

As mentioned by sinbad in his post above, there is no visual indicator (like a progress bar) to indicate a download is in progress. The Studio Instruments file is a pretty good size so it does take some time to download and install. I believe it was ten to 15 minutes. The good news is download and install is performed with just a click of the install button.

There have been a few instances noted in the Cakewalk forum of the program or Add-ons not fully downloading and installing. The "fix" is to uninstall and delete the existing copy of the Bandlab Assistant from your computer, download and install a fresh copy and try again.

Wow, so many great ideas. Thanks y'all.

Regarding the RD's, I posted something on the Wish List today. I would like more fills for each style. I have generated and re-re-re-generated and I get pretty much the same fills.

My big problem is pushes. Most of the RD's I have found sound great until they get to a push. Then they sound like the drummer was distracted by some hottie. Some of the pianos are just as bad, but I can use midi for them and sound OK. But the midi drums just aren't as good.

Anyway, thanks for all the ideas.

2b

Maybe I missed it in the thread, but, what synth are you using for your midi drums?

Tobias,

I am using Coyote.

I would gladly use something else, but for some reason I can not get any other VST's to load into RB. Kent from PG helped me get a bass synth loaded. Since that day, no luck at all. I can't even get Sample Tank 2, included with BB/RB, to work consistently.

Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I can't find out what it is.

2b

Sorry, but, I don't use Coyote and rarely use RealBand. Reaper, $60, handles plug ins well. I run SampleTank 3 in it all the time. I also have all the drum kits from ST2 inside of ST3 and they are decent. In case you didn't know; you can get SI Drums, Piano, Strings and Bass for free with a free download of Cakewalk by BandLab along with TTS-1 full GM soft synth. I prefer TTS-1 over Coyote. I use SI Drums often with good results. But it does not have all of the standard GM drum voices. Just a basic but decent drum kit with many alternate drum kits. I think ST2/ST3 are full General Midi drum kits but as far as I know there is no way to edit it's individual instruments other than changing velocities in your midi editor.
The reason I bring this up is I think you would like the drum sounds much better than Coyote.

Thanks, Tobias. I have been trying to learn a little about Reaper. I have a project that I am trying to keep moving and I hate to stop to learn a new system now. After this project, I will probably make the change. There are just too many little things about RB.

I downloaded Cakewalk but I did not have Studio Instruments. I tried to get that but it wouldn't work. So I am going to reinstall and try again. I tried ST3 but had no luck with it either. I am going to try that again.

My guess is that I am doing something wrong but I can't figure out what.

Thanks again.

2b

when it comes to fills, sometimes....and probably most times, simple is better. Listen to the stuff on the radio.....simple fills.

Agreed. When I first had a drum machine, I had to restrain myself from creating ten-armed drummer fills.

2b

My first machine was a CR-78. State of The Art back then!


Tons of bands used this (Phil Collins' "In The Air Tonight") for one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0CHoU24Dis


Regards,


Bob

As I said earlier, I decided I was going to try again today. Glad I did.

First thing I did was try to use SampleTank 2 (included with BB/RB). There is only one drum kit under HiQ. The drums sounded better than Coyote.

Then I tried uninstalling Jamstix and downloading it again. The free version says the plugin will be installed under Program Files\Steinberg\Plugins. Don't believe it. After two tries, they aren't there. There is a data file with an RZD extension called Sounds. I copied that to Plugins, even though I didn't think it would work. No luck. I copied the Manager file. No luck.

Then I downloaded Power Drums that Jim Fogle suggested. Eureka! It downloads quickly. It tells you exactly what to copy to the Plugins file. The drums sound wonderful. It comes with a mixer that allows you to control the volume of individual drums and cymbals. Compression can be switched on or off of each instrument. Master volume can be changed. It comes with a drum composer that has loops. You can build a drum track and then move it to the DAW. For us geezers who grew up with TR707's, that concept is very familiar. And the whole thing is free. They ask for a donation and I am going to make one, but they don't limit the program and there is no expiration date.

I am going to try editing my drum track and seeing how Power Drums reacts, but I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work. Even if it doesn't, I can always edit with Coyote and then switch.

I don't know how much it would cost PG, but they may want to consider putting Power Drums in one of their bundles. They could charge something for it and it would save us all a lot of trouble.

Finally, I can't thank you folks on the Forum enough, especially Jim for turning me on to this. If you were here, I'd have to hug you.

2b

2b,

Thank Pipeline,

He first brought the VSTi to the forum's attention.

I'm glad you find the VSTi useful. Makes the "headache" from trying to remember what Pipeline linked to worthwhile!

But wait ! there's more, we have worked a very special offer for the viewers, call now and you will receive SSD5 drum VSTi at not extra cost!

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Pipeline,

I have been told you also deserve my thanks, so hugs to you too.

I will look at the Steven Slate drums.

Thanks again.

2b

FYI - I just purchased the SSD4 update to SSD5 and the drums sound great. I haven't had the chance to get into it deep yet but there are a lot of options to either completely change a drum or drums and/or to modify their sound. Lots to learn here.

I'm going to download the freebie. I will let you know how I think it compares to the MT Power Drums.

2b