The article title is misleading. The exercises are valuable. The tips do not help you complete a song per day but they may unlock some barriers that you might not even know you have as a songwriter.
I’d be perfectly happy to write a decent song every 20 days.
Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
Did either of you read the article? It’s not about work, it’s about practice.
Would you object to anyone suggesting you should practice guitar every day if you want to be a good guitar player?
That’s all that these type of articles are suggesting.
The most well known creatives create every day. Every art form.
Relax, I was trying to be funny. Perhaps a bad attempt. And I did read it.
Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
Bud, there are a few of us here that participate in February Album Writing Month, where the goal is to write 14 songs in the month of February each year. When we put the invitation here, invariably we get flack about how that’s not really possible, turns songwriting into work, etc.
Those of us that participate know that the practice of being prolific is as much necessary to becoming a songwriter as intense handwringing about each and every syllable.
The thread was already taking the turn of disregard instead of taking the tips to heart as a practicing songwriter.
We are avid mountain bikers. Often on a demanding “high heart rate” tough trail we become so focused that, counterintuitively, we feel more free. A zone a lot of endurance athletes describe. And for me some of my better hooks and lines have “appeared” during that state. Never anything resembling a complete song but enough to get started with.
A second scenario for us is when exposed (hiking, biking or even driving) through scenery that takes one’s breath away. That has also inspired some songs.
And, of course we are familiar with FAWN, etc. A tip of the pint glass to all who participate. And, of course we realize that practice helps but it does not always make perfect. I will never be able to race (which we do) my bike as fast as some folks who have "givens." Like giant lungs, etc. And I'll never be able to write like some of the folks on the user forum who have an ability to see themes in many different and unique ways...like a writer of great prose. And create vivid imagery for same. I will note that I do not wring my hands over only writing a song every month or so. I not not spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get the "right" word. But I do spend a lot of days between writing sessions during that month. If I sit down to work on a song and nothing happens I have many, many other things to do -- even in my many years of retirement. But eventually I get a song finished.
Perhaps being veery prolific helps but IMHO a great idea, hook, etc., is golden. And as one of the best writers on the forum once told me "you got to have something to say!"
And FWIW I and others, particularly many on a board like PG Music, tend toward seeing the completion of a song only after it has been arranged, backing tracks selected, mixed and often mastered. A time consuming but enjoyable process got us.
Every man must make his own path...or something like that.
In no way do I want to denigrate the notion that learning is important -- especially about song structure. I have learned a LOT, even at my 73 years, from several members here who have been very patient with me as I struggled to write. Without them and BiaB I would never have begun to try this song writing thing.
Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
Did either of you read the article? It’s not about work, it’s about practice.
Would you object to anyone suggesting you should practice guitar every day if you want to be a good guitar player?
That’s all that these type of articles are suggesting.
The most well known creatives create every day. Every art form.
Yes and here are my thoughts"
Day 1, 4, 6, - do this all the time in BiaB Day 2, 5, 17 - do this all the time with BiaB tracks in my DAW Day 3 - try to do this with instrumentals and when collaborating with BobH when writing lyrics. Day 7, 10, 11 - try to do this with instrumentals Day 8 - not a lyricists Day 9, 12, 15 - do this Day 14 - always do this Day 16 - I do this with instrumentals Day - 18 - do this with BobH and JonD and others Day 19 - I try to write instrumentals in all moods Day 20 - I have my workflow but many times I deviate from it. It is not engraved in stone.
We have the advantage of having BiaB at our disposal 24/7/365. I'll bet that most of us already use many of those techniques.
After spending many years playing in wedding bands and playing what other people wanted I now play what I want and when I want.
I stand by my statement. Working in MIDI takes time and really can't be rushed if I want good results. Sometimes a song will only take a day or two but other times it may take weeks. But I enjoy this more than working with RTs or any other audio track(s).
Finally I know it takes practice to learn songwriting and/or playing any instrument. My songs are a lot better now then they were 20 years ago. My wind controller is better than a couple of years ago but my guitar playing has diminished as I don't practice like I should. But at my age I don't care.
YMMV
Peace
Waitress "How did you find your steak sir"?
Me "I just looked next to the potatoes and there it was"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I'm a huge fan of Andrea Stolpe. Her book "Popular Lyric Writing" is one that I have re-read at least 20 times. It's short, to the point and teaches a very productive lyric writing technique.
For anyone who reads this and would like a bit of background information....
Andrea is a past student of Pat Pattison and she invented a lyric-writing strategy based on Pattision's object writing. She uses 'external' phrases and rhymes balanced with 'internal' phrases and rhymes to construct verses, chorus and bridge. These phrases and rhymes are gathered during the course of what Andrea calls "Destination Writing".
Following her approach, I have regularly surprised myself by starting with no idea at all and getting a first draft of lyrics within 1 - 2 hours -- often quicker.
I'm not a fan of Pat Pattison. While I will certainly concede that some of his techniques are helpful, here's where it breaks down for me....he's not a songwriter, he's an academic/educator. He hasn't been a successful, published songwriter, which in of itself isn't so bad, but IMO he believes that songwriting is a skill that can be taught. Much like, if you want to be an architect? Go to college, work hard to learn all you can and get your degree, and off you go, you're an architect. You could insert doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc.
Songwriting is not a skill, it's a talent. It is certainly a talent than can be improved upon - after 3 1/2 decades of writing for a living, I still try to write better songs, and I believe I improve constantly. But a certain amount of talent is a prerequisite to being any good at it.
I was brought on by a nearby community college to "teach" commercial songwriting, now entering my 2nd year. I can't teach anybody to write a song, and nobody else can. That's pretty much like trying to teach a fish to swim. You either can or you can't. Little bits of craft, shortcuts, workarounds, etc. - that I can share, but I simply reject the notion that just anyone can write songs. It's a running disagreement I have with faculty administration, because (as educators) they simply don't believe my belief to be accurate (although they've yet to provide any evidence to the contrary).
I very well may judge Pattison too harshly, but in my defense, I've just encountered far too many aspiring writers in my career who hang on Pattison's every word as if it were gospel truth or indisputable fact. I believe I mentioned on another thread, I never read a single book about songwriting until 13 years after I had my first song recorded, and then it was only out of curiosity because Jimmy Webb wrote it, and I'm a big fan of his work.
Bottom line is, I guess, if you find something in his (or anyone else's) books that helps you write better, then that's great. I just think he's incredibly overrated.
Go ahead and keep this forum full of ‘what style should I use to sound like Luke Brown or Chris Brian or whoever is currently writing about drinking beer in the woods around a bonfire with the girls in the cutoff shorts and getting familiar in the bed of a pickup truck.
If you've been making a living for 35 years, there's likely nothing Pat Patterson can teach you anyway. Not being argumentative because I agree with all you wrote in your comment above in principle but not in practicality. With more than three decades of writing, I can guarantee you've written better songs than have been published on 100% of record albums/CD's commercially released. You've written great songs that no one other than maybe a family member or close friend has ever heard. I'll counter your notion that just anyone can't write a song with I believe everyone has written at least one song in their lifetime! Music is as innate to humanity as tracking/sniffing is to a dog. It's built into our psyche. Music affects our moods, helps us maintain focus and is universally enjoyable. Everyone sings in the shower or when they're alone and all of them, each and every one, has made up a song spontaneously. They've written a song and they sing it out. Your remarks seem to confuse commercial songwriting with songwriting. They're not the same and you are absolutely correct than not everyone can turn out a hit. Most commercial artists have never recorded a number one song much less written one. It's a rarity and largely controlled by the music industry itself. Millions of artists have written songs of a quality to be number one but the song never even entered the contest. There are people who would be judged to have no musical ability or talent and have written a single song, and it was a hit. Thousands of examples in which an artist writes, records and releases a song and it is a commercial failure only for the song to be selected by another artist, redone (sometimes nearly indistinguishable from the original) and it becomes a huge hit.
Songwriting is a teachable skill. It's no different than being an architect, doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. Most of these people are in careers that their success is measured the same as most songwriters - They work and produce their product daily without world wide fame and monetary success. For instance, lawyers by the tens of thousands work their trade for 35 years and they never have a single case garner national attention that brings them fame. It's just the same for the songwriter that's never had a hit. Most of the world's work product is mundane.
Pat Patterson is no different than any high school teacher or college professor teaching tens of thousands of students daily for years day in day out and never produce a #1 best selling author.
The great thing about opinions is that everyone is allowed (or should be allowed) to have one, or many. I respect yours, and you expressed your position in a very fair and reasonable way. I just happen to completely disagree with you, and to that end, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. By the way, I believe I did say something to the effect of "if you get something out of his books, that's great". I do think he makes some decent points - as I said, I more take exception to the notion that he's some sort of song whisperer. I absolutely wouldn't suggest anyone here has said or implied that, but it is absolutely something I've encountered a great many times over the years.
Let me circle back to the point I thought I was making, and probably didn't do well. I've been extremely fortunate that I've had a great many songs recorded over the years. The first was in 1985 by Tanya Tucker, I was barely 23 years old. At that time, I had never read a book, taken a class, or been given any instruction whatsoever on how to write a song. In those days in Nashville, you had to pretty much sink or swim on your own creatively....the only instruction anyone was willing to give was business-related. There was no such thing as a song critique...it was either "yeah, we might be able to do something with that", or "meh, that's a piece of crap, what else do you have".
Nobody taught me how to write songs, I just figured it out on my own. My first publisher was a songwriter who had a 6th grade education and was dyslexic, and yet he had hundreds of songs of his recorded, and well over a dozen big hits. His comment "I ain't got no craft, I'm gifted" kind of sounded egotistical to me at the time he said it, but over the years I've come to understand where he was coming from. He couldn't tell you how he wrote songs. He couldn't tell you where the ideas or melodies came from. He just sat down and did it.
That is simply not a "taught skill". It's a God-given talent. No different than a kid that picks up a baseball and throws it 100mph.
Now, where you are spot-on correct is when you pointed out astutely that I was speaking about commercial songwriting. I view writing through that lens, because it's my vocation, and perhaps it's an unfair perspective to apply as broadly as I do. I do a lot of workshops and seminars for NSAI (I was a mentor for the Advanced Song Camp just last week), and part of what I do on occasion is to listen to aspiring writers songs and try to help them "fix" them or make them better. I can listen to a song and make suggestions and/or changes - but I can't explain the WHY, it's just instinct. As I said, I was never taught how - I just did it, and wound up making a career out of it.
Lastly, I'll say this. I would agree that a lot of people could write something resembling a song, or a fragment of one at least. But my father, as an example, was completely and utterly tone-deaf. He couldn't tell Mozart from two trash cans lids banging together. He couldn't have written a song if you had given him books and sat him in classes for a hundred years. He did graduate college in 3 years and went to both law school and medical school, so he was a very educated man. But he wasn't capable of grasping music, at all. So no - I don't believe it's a learned skill. I believe it's a talent. Again, I hope we can respectfully agree to disagree - I enjoy reading your posts!
No problem. I think we're closer to being on the same page than either of us articulate. I find it incredibly easy to write songs but practically impossible to sell them. I understand your point about your Dad, but I'll bet at some time throughout his life, when no one was looking and no one could hear, he made up a song and was singing in the shower. Obviously, you're correct regarding talent. There's some that can produce hit after hit and they are actually great songs. Every industry has it's top performers and there seems to be people who are born to be great at something. They can make the difficult look so easy.
There's also some luck involved I think. Good discussion and I've enjoyed reading your posts too and look forward to hearing a lot from you.
I write regarding your comment below. I am a teacher.
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
Songwriting is not a skill, it's a talent. It is certainly a talent than can be improved upon - after 3 1/2 decades of writing for a living, I still try to write better songs, and I believe I improve constantly. But a certain amount of talent is a prerequisite to being any good at it.
Good songwriting is certainly a talent. There’s no doubt about that at all. That said, anything that is a talent can also be taught... maybe not with the natural flair for inventiveness and creativity that 'talent' brings to the table, but through analyses it's possible to deduce patterns and regularities that an educator can use as a starting place for teaching and this educator can then expand on these foundations.
For some students, this process of 'learning the mechanics' often opens a doorway of what's possible and this, in turn, allows previously unrealised or unrecognised natural talent to develop and grow.
Over the years, I have had a number of students go on to achieve outstanding accomplishments although I have never once achieved anything equivalent at any stage of my life.
I’ve been to many Prof. Patterson seminars, I was up to 20 when I stopped counting, and he is definitely a talented educator just like you are a talented songwriter (your credentials are very impressive). My experience is that a talented educator has the ability to not only teach knowledge but also to inspire creativity and to unleash a desire to achieve at the highest possible levels. All too often, our western school system fails at the latter and stops at the 'disseminating knowledge' stage of education. Pattison is not such a teacher. My personal experience is that the large majority of people leave Pattison's seminars inspired to write and eagre to learn more. I've seen many people, like myself, who keep on returning to his seminars. Pattison challenges, motivates and emboldens people to try. Isn't that what good teaching is all about?
I'll never forget the feeling of satisfaction and gratitude that I felt when I left my very first Patterson seminar. He gave me some tools to work with and a lens through which to view songwriting that made the impossible a possibility for me. Since that day, I have never stopped feeling thankful to him.
In addition, I believe that it is through accomplished teaching that skills are enhanced and exceptional talent is given the very best set of circumstances in which it can thrive and can accomplish great things. Time and time again history has shown that this is true.
You seem to agree with this when you say,
Originally Posted By: Roger Brown
It is certainly a talent than can be improved upon - after 3 1/2 decades of writing for a living, I still try to write better songs, and I believe I improve constantly.
It is when one discovers a talented teacher who has the ability to know what needs to be done to accomplish the "better" that you mention, that the process of growing more accomplished is streamlined and hastened.
One example that springs to mind is Mozart. He was an amazing talent. As I understand it, he had perfect pitch and he could 'hear' an orchestra and its arrangement effortlessly in his mind. When polishing his musical creations, though, it was through the skills he learnt regarding harmony, counterpoint and general music craftsmanship that allowed his music to become timeless. Mozart's talent was enhanced by a number of educators.
Just my tuppence worth.
Regards, Noel Adams
P.S. I am not a talented songwriter but through seminars with Pat Pattison, Steve Seskin and Beth Nielsen Chapman, in addition to reading a number of books, I have learnt how to write songs that allow me to feel a sense of accomplishment and self-satisfaction. That's enough for me.
Thanks for replying, Noel.... I certainly never intended to come across as if I devalue or disrespect educators or education. That was NEVER my intention, as I hold those who teach in the highest regard (as I said, I 'teach' a songwriting class at a community college myself). My point is, again and this is my opinion, that I don't believe songwriting at it's core is something that can be taught regardless of how good those doing the teaching are at their job. Now anything can be learned through study and teaching, that's a separate conversation and most likely where the disconnect is in this particular discussion. Learning how to do something and being really good at it are two different things, as you would know very well. I studied math in school growing up, and though I managed to learn it well enough to pass my classes, I was never any good at it. And so I guess in my mind I'm applying that criteria (being really good at something) to my definition of having learned how to do it - probably unfair, but there it is. I know Steve and Beth, they are both brilliant songwriters and I would encourage anyone to attend their classes/seminars/workshops. My thoughts are truly specific to Pattison, and with apologies I'm simply going to have to stand by my opinion that he is overrated....more specifically, by many people I have met, his opinions and teachings on songwriting are overVALUED to the point of them being treated like they are the Ten Commandments. Does he have good points, good exercises, good thoughts? Absolutely. There is most likely something in there that could be applied by everyone who writes or attempts to write songs. However - I, unfortunately, have sat down with dozens and dozens of aspiring writers (please note the word 'aspiring', as in hoping to write professionally) who have played me songs that were simply not competitive in the commercial marketplace, and then being flabbergasted when I told them so, because "I wrote these exactly the way Pat Pattison said to".
So maybe I take less exception with what or how Pat Pattison teaches, and more with the way his methods wind up being applied by many. I hope this clarifies, and my heartfelt apologies if I in any way came across as being disrespectful or unappreciative of educators such as yourself. Regards, RB
I didn't take any offence to your writing at all. You made me think and I always appreciate that.
When I read your statement, "So maybe I take less exception with what or how Pat Pattison teaches, and more with the way his methods wind up being applied by many", I smiled because I remembered when I started trying to apply Pat's approaches. The saying 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' just sprang to mind! That definitely applied to me. I'll explain.
After Pat's first seminar, I was armed with...
knowledge of aligning syllable strength with appropriate musical rhythmic strength
how to control lyric movement through rhyme and meter
how to use sense-based language to engage the listener with 'showing' rather than telling
how to augment emotion through use of balanced and unbalanced phrases (musically and lyrically)
What I didn't appreciate though, was that these tools in the hands of a well-practised expert are used very differently than when some novice person like myself tries to use them. Ability and sophistication develop through practice. And that needs time. After my first seminar, this didn't occur to me. I simply felt like I was ready to conquer the songwriting world
It's now 13 years after that first Pattison seminar. Up until then, I had no idea at all how to write lyrics and to fit them to music. What Pat gave me was some analytical insight to get started and a belief that I could do it. The reason I kept on returning to his seminars was because every time I heard him speak, I heard things a little differently because as I practised more and gained more experience, I was able to gain increasingly more from his words.
Now when I now look back on my songs from 13 years ago, I usually cringe. At that time, I thought I understood 100% what Pattison was saying. I didn't. In reality, it was just a glimmer of what was to come many years later. As someone once told me, hindsight is always 20/20 vision.
What I am forever grateful to Pattison for is that he taught me how to, and I quote him, "Write Fearlessly!" As he has said at every seminar I've been to, "Never be afraid to write crap. After all, it's the best fertiliser." When I look back now, it's amazing how these two statements of his have been driving forces for me on my songwriting journey.
Thank you again for giving me a heap of the proverbial 'food for thought'!
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The XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs are not included in any Band-in-a-Box® package.
The XPro Styles PAKs 1-10 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
The Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the Xtra Styles PAK Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version as they require the RealTracks included in the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box today with XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAK Sets!
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One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
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