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Songwriting
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I would say commercial songwriting is obviously something that can be taught. Nashville and pop music rely heavily on a formulaic approach to hit writing and that can be taught. But there is incredible competition, the who-do-you-know factor and plain old luck involved in getting a great song anywhere near hit status. Finally, I was never impressed with Pattison's teaching & writing style. I feel he takes 20 minutes to cover what could be easily explained in 5 minutes. And I just get bored and annoyed listening to him. Maybe he is truly brilliant but I'll never have the patience to find out! 
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Songwriting is not a skill, it's a talent. It is certainly a talent than can be improved upon - after 3 1/2 decades of writing for a living, I still try to write better songs, and I believe I improve constantly. But a certain amount of talent is a prerequisite to being any good at it.
Though I can see his point of view, I disagree with Roger... I think songwriting is both a skill & talent... And both can be improved upon... By writing... But each of us have our own approach to the craft... And hopefully we are having fun! Scott mentioned the FAWM challenge... There is also the 50/90 challenge http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/I urge you to go there & listen to some of the songs... Some are crap & some sound great (ear of the hearer I guess  )... The drawback for me is finding time to listen to the songs of others & make fairly quality comments... While still trying to concentrate on writing. Here it is easier to listen & comment because there are far fewer submissions... Well... there use to be !
Jim
†=☮&♥
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As someone that is grateful for public domain songs so I can have something to record I have no skin in this game. I've enjoyed reading this thread because of the diverse views expressed as well as how civil the conversation has been.
Reading through the posts though one thought keeps coming to me. What if you mentally replace the word "teacher" with the word "coach". Does that change the meaning of any of the posts? Does it bring the two viewpoints closer together? Does this change the conversation any, if at all?
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Hi Jim,
I think that to some extent the notions of 'coach' and 'teacher' are interchangeable. I'm not sure that they are synonyms in all circumstances, though.
As a science teacher, when I use the word 'coach' to explain my actions, I am tutoring a person to follow a set of operations that achieve a predictable outcome and that outcome is unvarying. For example, I coach someone in how to multiply two-digit numbers or I coach someone in how division of fractions works.
On the other side of that coin, when I teach someone, I see myself as providing that person with a set of principles that are guided by knowledge and then giving them the freedom to use those principles and knowledge in ways that I have probably never thought of.
My way of thinking is that talented teaching involves elements of coaching as well as elements of facilitating learning. The 'talent' aspect for me relates to a skilled ability to make the complex understandable and, as a consequence, to inspire learners to seek knowledge, to develop skills beyond the classroom and to become their own coaches and teachers.
Thank you for such a thought-provoking question!
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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I don’t worship Pattison. I’ve taken the free Berklee songwriting course twice.
I’m clearly not a talented songwriter as I have no hit records to my credit.
But I do enjoy songwriting now more than ever. It’s a very satisfying leisure activity and turns on part of my brain that I don’t get to use in my normal job as an ejection seat test engineer. I make a pretty good living doing that. From all accounts that I have heard from professional songwriters, with only the very top 100 of them in the world, I make a way better living than they do. So maybe it’s a blessing I don’t have to do songwriting for a living.
I use several methods in my songs that I learned in Pat’s course; namely The Boxes and odd line counts in prechorus sections, and the whole concept of prosody. These are not things you learn in engineering school on any level.
Is he the only one that teaches those things? I have no idea.
But they are useful to me in this hobby for enjoyment and satisfaction, and for that, I’m quite thankful for his courses. I think this is probably the case for most people that take his courses. He has opened doors for many to enjoy something they perhaps didn’t know they could enjoy.
I think this is why you see the praise of him. Now, if you have no need to be taught anything about songwriting because it’s all just natural talent; and you make write hit records while you are eating breakfast, or while you are just walking down the street, well you would have no appreciation for someone who teaches others what you yourself have known from birth.
To everyone else, if you’ve not tried the tips in this article, but you want to add tools to your songwriting toolbox, it can’t hurt to try them.
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Songwriting
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I don't think "not having any hit records" disqualifies one from being a talented song-writer. There are too many other factors at play (and the recent "worse songs" threads give evidence to this) that are probably more important than the general artistic quality of a song.
Song-writing (either as a hobby or a profession/semi-profession) is sort of like "photography" to me. Some people prefer to snap-snap-snap and cull the results. Some people like to carefully frame and apply filters and do all the other photography skills/tricks. The former have enough "eye" to recognize the worth of individual photographs and may, over time, learn to produce a larger percentage of their work that become "keepers". The latter have enough eye to recognize the value of the skills/tricks they've learned, and seek to learn more.
I've seen hobbyist photographers who barely knew how to operate a point-and-shoot camera take more pleasing photographs after a few lessons. I have to believe the same can be true of "song-writers". As long as they have the "ear", the skill-sets can be taught. And sometimes what is taught has to be interpreted to meet the requirements of the song instead of reworking the song to meet the requirements of the skill-set. I think that at least sometimes works in engineering too.
I'll look into the video/series more as time allows. At the least, I'd like to know what a "Pre-chorus" is as I've seen it mentioned on this forum before and have no idea.
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A pre chorus occurs in the song right before the chorus as a build into the chorus. It often has its own rhyming scheme apart from the verses and chorus. Sometimes there’s no rhyme at all. Of course I can’t think of a single example off the top of my head!
Edit: Since U Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson has a big pre chorus build
Last edited by rockstar_not; 08/07/19 09:20 AM.
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Songwriting
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Journeyman
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Interesting reading the posts from Roger, Scott, Noel and others about a long debated topic is it talent or is it practice. This debate doesn't just rage in the music world it's also in the other arts. Do you have to have immense talent to be a great dancer or a great artist? Or maybe to be in the Olympics? I'm also a visual artist and spent most of the last couple months preparing for a solo art show, proud to say I sold 10 paintings and received really great feedback and positive comments on my paintings. I also did some poetry to accompany some of them. There was the time in art history of Leonardo Di Vinci and other great painters before the camera, that art was taught and apprentices worked with artists to perfect their technical skills. In the time of Di Vinci and Michelangelo art was an occupation and their works met a demand for realistic paintings. They learned to become great through themselves being an apprentice. Van Gogh in his day was sort of looked down on as maybe even slightly crazy and a troublemaker. He only sold (1) painting in his life. Van Gogh was not accepted into the academy as they thought he had no talent, but he painted daily and developed his own unique style. None of these artists were really that famous in their day only post modem when the rich and museums decided to promote them. After the camera was invented, a modern movement happened in Europe and then America when famous artists labeled themselves as "having gifts bestowed by God". No one had to teach them art, they were the chosen ones. Monet, Picasso, Kalinsky, Rothko, etc. They did impressionistic and abstract art. Art became about the feelings to be expressed. This continued into our last century and even today. When I went to art school, I had teachers who couldn't explain perspective. They didn't need to, as art was inspired magic if you had it and about feelings. If you wanted an exact replication take a photo. I am glad to see today there is a remergence of the "New Old Masters" teachings. Back to my point, what I've seen in art students and others learning art you need (2) things a teeny bit of talent and interest and the discipline to learn and practice. You will be amazed at how good you can become. Whether you are ever famous or not is a whole another thing and that is based on opportunity and luck, neither of which may cross ones path in this life. One can become better than someone who has a lot of talent but is lazy and does not put in the time and effort to develop that talent. IMO I believe that many students who couldn't achieve for Roger is because many people and especially young people believe that it is God given and should be easy if they have it, and they aren't willing to put in the elbow grease otherwise to get there. Talent will get you no where without the hard work. I also believe many teachers seeing students not try or fail, dismiss them quickly because they know they won't put in the effort (who could blame them), however someone with some talent will get encouraged and praised by the teacher and that is inspiring in itself and positively encourages the student to continue.
Also, as Roger explained it is possible to have some talent and self teach as it appears that he's done and because he practiced and kept at it to become a good songwriter. I remember one famous songwriter saying "People say great songs come from inspiration, thank God inspiration strikes every day at 9:00". Bottom line is that none of this is important if it's not bringing any happiness or joy in your life. If you're unhappy that you are never going to be famous or cut a top hit (largely controlled by the music industry) then you're only frustrating your life and being miserable. Remember life is short and great artists die like everyone else and they ain't taking nothing with them, chosen by God or not. You gotta have the love of it.
Last edited by Belladonna; 08/08/19 07:18 AM.
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Songwriting
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Hey Rock_star, I also took the free songwriting class from Pat Pattison twice. I do use the boxes, length of lines, pre-chorus and prosody from his teachings. I also do the object and destination writing to come up with songs and imagery. I've only been writing for about 8 years but have written over 350 songs. I do FAWM and 50/90 although this year I have been quite busy with my other hobbies I do, art and dance. I read all the time about songwriting, I dissect good songs, belong to a local songwriter group. Try to write a lot whether inspired or not. I just signed up for a creative writing class for the Fall at our local college. I'm writing lyrics and songs for a second album of a local musician country and southern rock style. Last year I wrote 10 songs for a UK artist. I may never have a number one hit, but I consider myself a success and I have worked hard at it. I'm not the greatest, but I'm not the worst as most of us are somewhere in between. Don't let anyone tell you, you have no talent and that you will never be successful. Determine what success is to you. Keep on, keepin' on. Rock on!!!!
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jan 2016
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PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
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Cool find Rockstar_not! Definitely some invaluable exercises to try here. Thanks for sharing!
Cheers,
Joe
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Songwriting
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I'll look into the video/series more as time allows. At the least, I'd like to know what a "Pre-chorus" is as I've seen it mentioned on this forum before and have no idea. Hi Tangmo, Here's my 2 cents worth (just in case it's useful)... I look at prechoruses as transitional bridges. This is a idea that Pat Pattison once discussed at a seminar I went to and I find it the most productive way of working out how to fit them into a song. As a transitional bridge, a prechorus's purpose is to link the verse to the chorus. To this end, it often creates tension through an odd number of phrases or lyric line length or rhyme, etc., and then when the chorus begins, there's a satisfying release of tension and feeling of having hit home-base. Scott used Kelly Clarkson's work as an example so I'll continue to use her work... The lyrics and the song link for "Breakaway" are below. I really like this song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-3vPxKdj6oVERSE 1
Grew up in a small town
And when the rain would fall down
I'd just stare out my window
Dreamin' of what could be
And if I'd end up happy
I would pray
VERSE 2
Trying hard to reach out
But when I tried to speak out
Felt like no one could hear me
Wanted to belong here
But something felt so wrong here
So I pray
I could breakaway
CHORUS
I'll spread my wings, and I'll learn how to fly
I'll do what it takes till I touch the sky
And I'll make a wish
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
Out of the darkness and into the sun
But I won't forget all the ones that I love
I'll take a risk
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
If you count the phrases in verse 1, there are six of them. In verse 2, though, there are seven. That seventh phrase in verse 2 serves as a means to transition (lyrically) more smoothly into the chorus. While it's possible to enter the chorus after line 6 (verse 2), adding this linking seventh line disturbs the established motion and, in so doing, creates tension. The melody for this line also lifts expectantly. (This is why pre-choruses are sometimes called 'lifts'). These two factors combine and lift expectations in the listener (i.e. "tension"). So this last line of verse 2 is a trigger for the chorus. It creates tension which is released with the arrival of the chorus. In the hands of Kelly Clarkson, these chorus lyrics feel like they arrive with an explosion. The seventh line augments this feeling. Some song analysts would call this a one-line prechorus others would could it a trigger line or a one-line lift. For me, I see this as a transitional line that empowers the chorus and connects it to the verse more strongly. The thing is that whatever it's called, it's usual purpose is to raise a listener's expectations and boost a feeling of satisfaction when the chorus arrives. PSY's "Gangnam Style" has one of the best pre-choruses I've heard. It lifts expectations enormously as it prepares the listener for the chorus. As I hear it, the prechorus starts at 0:46 and the chorus enters at 1:10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZTcIJ2ycwMRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Songwriting
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It's always really cool when people provide their own personal writing tips, and seeing how and in what ways people can adapt them to work for themselves. Really neat stuff.
Cheers,
Ember
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We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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