I used to use a controller only style keyboard for this purpose. But, for what you want to do a simple Yamaha (or other accompaniment/synth/keyboard) will do just fine and probably better than a controller only like the Akai
That is helpful. I was wondering if I needed something that expensive. Although I like the idea of getting something with semi-weighted keys. What I have now doesn't have a good feel.
The more I read these comments the more I think maybe I shouldn't be using BIAB. But rather making my own tracks from scratch. Especially since I want to do something with compelling contemporary grooves.
I had thought Real Tracks were the way to go, but it sounds like there are definitely other options too.
The thing about BIAB is, imo, this: You have a song, you like it, but you grew tired of it. You can always find styles to change the whole feel. Ok, the stock styles are not always great, but there are some great ones. And there's some other styles on the market that are more modern (mine certainly...).
For example, much as I love Dolphin Dance, I like to -occasionally- change the whole feel, even go for 6/8 or more straight and then more swinging. Same thing with the music I compose, I want to check what different approaches can add to the music.
Keeps me motivated for practicing and playing.
Don't give up on BIAB yet.
Njoy
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
saxgentleman67, you may find certain genres are better done in BIAB versus a keyboard workstation. You initially mentioned jazz, new age, and classical. I think jazz is particularly strong in BIAB using real tracks, as long as you stick with the rhythm section stuff - especially guitars. I don't find the realtracks soloist or horn parts very usable/believable, so I'm using them as the foundation, and adding my own keyboards and vocals. I've been using BIAB for less than a month and am amazed at the results so far. And I also agree with the suggestion to try other styles - if nothing else, just to get a fresh take on some things. Combining genres often gets some very usable tracks - I've mixed some bossa nova guitars with other rhythm styles and love the results. I especially think Oliver Gannon's guitar tracks are very flexible - perhaps because he had a great understanding of how BIAB works.
I have yet to hear any MIDI tracks that hold a candle to the realism of the realtracks, even with higher end sound plugins, but would love to be proven wrong.
I would think you would have difficulty using Realtracks for new age and classical styles.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
I have yet to hear any MIDI tracks that hold a candle to the realism of the realtracks, even with higher end sound plugins, but would love to be proven wrong.
I have yet to hear any MIDI tracks that hold a candle to the realism of the realtracks, even with higher end sound plugins, but would love to be proven wrong.
@MarioD - Do you accept this challenge?
My music is in the showcase forum so they are free to go and give a listen.
As for another challenge I would like them to take a sax RT and turn it into a guitar track like I can in MIDI.
RTs and MIDI and not an either or situation. Both are tools to use when needed.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Agree that it's not either/or, I just haven't yet found MIDI based tracks (either as a whole MIDI production or mixed with Realtracks or audio) that my ears don't soon tell me are not "real". I've listened to some user showcase things, but if anyone has particularly good examples I should focus on, I'm "all ears".
I'm mainly dealing with a fairly narrow genre - small ensemble jazz, and largely needing Biab to provide guitar/bass tracks that I can add my own keyboards and vocals to. As I mentioned, I don't find the Realtracks horn parts very usable (too "generic" sounding, which I guess is the goal ) ,and don't really have a need for them anyway. And I am adding my own piano/electric piano and sometimes vibes/marimba parts, which are using MIDI sound sources. My cross section is admittedly narrow - and a place where I find the Realtracks jazz guitar and bass parts exactly what I needed to complete some projects on my own. I do think the acoustic guitar is especially difficult to make believable in the MIDI world. If I do find things I can't accomplish with the Realtracks, Ample Sound guitars are the place I'll turn. Their classical guitar modeling/sampling and tools are pretty amazing.
The stuff I'm doing so far are cover tunes, so I can't post them here. But when I get a chance I'll put something original together just for an example.
Last edited by cwiggins999; 05/13/2006:32 AM.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Oh I understand now. You have picked one of the hardest instruments to emulate via MIDI, i.e. a guitar.
Like all MIDI instruments you have to have a very good sound source and then learn how to emulate the nuances of said instrument via MIDI continuous controls, CCs. The guitar is one of the hardest to emulate. Part of the problem is that there are so many guitar sounds and techniques that picking the right one for your song is very challenging.
You can get very realistic horn and woodwind sounds with a good sound source, a wind controller or a breath controller or a keyboard controller with an expression pedal though. Those controllers can work wonders with strings also.
Good luck and have fun.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Personally I think it should be against the law to even attempt to recreate the sound of a saxophone:) Bad enough with all the amateurs making it sound like a lawn mower.
It seems though that professional quality sound is realistic for at least bass and drums and piano. And that's all I really need.
My biggest concern is getting lazy and falling into the trap of just using the pre done rhythm tracks, instead of taking the time to create something original, that doesn't end up sounding like accompaniment software.
I would add that I'm a jazz guy. I only thru in the new age and classical because I'm not entirely sure what I am trying to do musically with this. Probably jazz/instrumental pop of some sort. But NOT the R & B groove of smooth jazz. Likely mostly latin stuff.
I had the thought to do this when hearing that pop singer Billy Eilish had her brother, Finneas produce the tracks for her songs. And it sounded pretty good to me, like a real band.
Latin and Brazilian influenced jazz are my strongest interests at this point, and I think you would be happy with the BIAB realtracks results in those categories. I do find the piano tracks a little less appealing than the guitar tracks, and perhaps that's due to the way realtracks are chopped up for "reconstruction". As I mentioned, I've been using Biab for less than a month. I initially bought it because I wanted to be able to lay out chord charts and have them converted to simple MIDI chord patterns for processing thru some plugins. I had very low expectations and didn't know anything about the Realtracks feature, so all of that has been a revelation to me. I can see where they wouldn't work as well for some styles, but for the basic framework of jazz and jazz/pop they have been effective and fast to create.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Personally I think it should be against the law to even attempt to recreate the sound of a saxophone:) Bad enough with all the amateurs making it sound like a lawn mower. ................
Now that made me LOL!
I would like you to listen to the sax in this song and the give me a real appraisal on it. Don't worry if you think it stinks as I have been told that before but if you have any constructive criticisms I would like to hear them.
I am using me wind controller and the Swan Saxophones from Audio Modeling. I am a guitarist first, then a bassist, wind controller and lastly I play a little keyboard.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Not bad. I think it captures the essence of a mediocre to good sax player. Although I think part of why it works is because of the slow tempo. I like that the tone is appropriate to the style. Especially when there are so many kinds of sound on the sax, from the glass-shattering brightness of Arthur Blythe to the darkness of Joe Henderson.So it comes off as sensitive and tasteful. The really bad saxophone sounds tends to be at high speed. And you avoided what I've really heard be problematic: sounding like an accordion. Or too much vibrato. I guess it's been a while since I've heard artificial sax. Also the reverb helps it a lot. This clip reminds me very much of the sax from a Seinfeld episode playing "You Stepped Out of a Dream". My only constructive crit is that a real sax player would take a lot more liberties with it. Less stiff. But I think that's on you, not on the sound. Then again, perhaps you intentionally kept it straight. Most sax players do tend to over do it because it's too easy to play a million notes on the sax.
I usually play slow songs with my emulated sax sounds. One reason is that I really can't play fast on my wind controller. The wind controller is my latest instrument and I really don't practice it like I should.
Second is the fact that the emulated sax sounds like crap in the higher registries. Part of that is because I haven't played with the settings.
Both of these are on me but I much rather play guitar, bass, and BiaB! I am a lazy ol' coot!
Thanx for you time.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
The things I miss the most are articulations and dynamics that a "real" sax would typically have. So the sample can be pretty close and still miss those aspects. I know there are tons of control options available thru MIDI and most sample instruments set up custom key switches, etc. to try to emulate what a player would do. But IMHO it still doesn't fool me into thinking there's a sax player involved. I also sometimes go down the rabbit hole of tweaking my own keyboard parts to remove/fix wrong notes, etc., and usually come back up saying, "it would have been quicker to just do another take and get it right" :-)
I don't know if it's still common, but some keyboards I've had over the years also had a breath controller input - just for blowing air while playing keys, not like an EWI or standalone musical controller. I tried using it a bit myself, but not much joy. And I don't recall seeing anyone ever use one on stage.
I keep having a blast sampling the huge number of styles and style demos - found some great soprano sax tracks from Eric Marienthal that I may actually use. Like saxman, I'm not a smooth jazz fan. But I mixed one of the smooth jazz soprano solos (1060 - setting it at half-time) with the rest of the band playing bossa nova at 140 and it sounds great! Now I'm going to spend some time with the Soloist module - plug in the basic song melody to see if the RealTracks soloist will play around (rather than on top of) the melody (which will be a vocal). So most of my my Biab time so far is finding serendipitous ways of expanding creativity.
I still feel that I've only barely scratched the surface of what Biab/Realtracks can accomplish.
Last edited by cwiggins999; 05/14/2004:48 AM.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Eat this... real musicians, A nice Eberhard Weber tune and a custom Band in a Box style, Kontakt libraries. I always struggled with the rhythm. Upon “inspection” it turns out to be 3/4+3/4+2/4=8/4 It’s based on Indian music (but on the record it sounds like Coltrane’s Favorite Things) and is essentially a truncated waltz rhythm, Indian musicians would,sing the rhythm as TaKaTa (3/4), Takata (3/4), Taka (2/4) Bad mix, though. Sorry ‘bout that.
I didn’t record a solo. Also didn’t use volume pedal or pitch wheel, which would make it more realistic still. Check out the “real version”. Charlie Mariano’s solo is just sooo great.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
Definitely nicely stretching the stylemaker capabilities of BiaB in terms of time signatures and syncopation. The soprano sax is nice - initially I thought it sounded like an oboe, but I listened to the original and Mariano has a different tone than a lot of soprano players - that "ECM" sound - so puts it more oboe-like IMHO. (And reminds me of my favorite jazz oboist, Paul McCandless, who has worked with Weber on several projects). So, nicely done.
For me, it's the technique that makes a synthetic instrument sound more believable. Gino Vanelli had some amazing albums in the early 70s that were all keyboards except for the drums. And this is way before MIDI sequencing, VST plugins, etc. His brother Ross was the arranger and one of the keyboardists. This track from Powerful People has a "trumpet" part at 1:14 and 2:15 that is obviously a synthesizer. But his technique - keyboard virtuosity, modulation/pitch bend, etc. makes me think "TRUMPET" even though my ears tell me differently. (And there is the suggestion of a "sax" at 1:40 - only lasts a couple of seconds, but it's enough to perk my ears up every time, and I've been listening frequently to this song for 46 years) So whether a part is played in real time or meticulously step/event edited, there has to be a good understanding of how a real player would play that specific instrument. Some plugins seem to be doing a good job of providing scripted functionality that helps with the realism - I mentioned being impressed by the Ample Sound acoustic guitars.
I guess everyone's criteria is different. I don't expect that I or other musicians would always be fooled by a synthetic instrument, but my goal would that be a fairly sophisticated non-musician listener wouldn't be distracted by something not sounding realistic.
Chuck Wiggins
BIAB 2023 Win UltraPak, Cakewalk, Windows 10 Pro Custom AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core, Focusrite Scarlett 4x4 interface
Ample sound sadly uses another “ecosystem”, Uvi, not Kontakt. But their sound libraries are great. Their Acoustic bass is wonderful. The trumpet in Vanelli’s tune reminds me of Metheny’s old Roland synth guitar. Great fun when played well.
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
I guess everyone's criteria is different. I don't expect that I or other musicians would always be fooled by a synthetic instrument, but my goal would that be a fairly sophisticated non-musician listener wouldn't be distracted by something not sounding realistic.
I think most would agree with that. As long as it sounds GOOD it really doesn't matter how accurate or authentic it is. Most people aren't gonna be bothered by it unless it sounds bad.
BTW, if my memory serves me correctly I remember playing a few gigs with Gino back in the day. I'm pretty sure he did the Italian Festival circuit and my city had a pretty decent sized one. Played with Al Martino, Vic Damone, Steve Lawrence....back in the late 80's. Good times. Back when it was all live...and full big band's for the backup band.
Ample sound sadly uses another “ecosystem”, Uvi, not Kontakt. But their sound libraries are great. Their Acoustic bass is wonderful. The trumpet in Vanelli’s tune reminds me of Metheny’s old Roland synth guitar. Great fun when played well.
Ample sound doesn't use UVI. They are all VSTis that do not use any "ecosystem". I have all of their basses and I just checked their web site to see if that has changed and it hasn't. You must have meant some other company.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Acoustic Samples uses UVI, so perhaps that's what you are thinking of. I've been using their Viby vibes (freebie) and thinking of getting the full Musser vibes package. The demos of their guitars are nowhere close to the Ample sounds packs IMHO, and they don't have a nylon guitar, which is a necessity for nice bossa nova/samba stuff. Ample Sound (same initials <g>), has some really nice tools for developing riffs and picking patterns, plus just playing the guitar from a keyboard feels and sounds great compared to other packages that I've tried out. They are a little pricey ($170 for nylon or steel guitar individually), so I'm waiting for a sale for some of them. They have a nice freebie of their Martin which is very usable and sounds great (but one release behind - 2.0 instead of 3.0 for purchased products).
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
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) ,and don't really have a need for them anyway. And I am adding my own piano/electric piano and sometimes vibes/marimba parts, which are using MIDI sound sources. My cross section is admittedly narrow - and a place where I find the Realtracks jazz guitar and bass parts exactly what I needed to complete some projects on my own. I do think the acoustic guitar is especially difficult to make believable in the MIDI world. If I do find things I can't accomplish with the Realtracks, Ample Sound guitars are the place I'll turn. Their classical guitar modeling/sampling and tools are pretty amazing. 
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