That is definitely true for good more expensive MIDI sound sources.
Velocity is an attribute of each note event which BIAB midi provides. Many of the midi playback sounds in my DAW have multiple layers which respond differently to different midi velocity input. So when BIAB is providing quality velocity values recorded by a midi instrument (as in the case of MSTs) all is good. But when transcribed or computer generated to a pattern then, not so good.
Both midi volume (CC 07) and expression (CC 11) both do the exact same thing but these are CC events. I have seen no CC output from any BIAB midi.
Agreed?
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
No, not agreed. Expression can be different from simple volume. On a Hammond organ for example it's specifically called an expression pedal because it increases volume non linearly. This is by specific design. It's weighted towards the higher levels. If you're playing at quieter levels and increase your pedal by say 10% you get a certain level of increased volume but if you're already pretty loud that same 10% of pedal movement at the higher end of the range is more than a 10% change in volume.
In addition to that, an expression pedal also increases the overdrive of of the tube preamp and the Leslie amp so it also changes the character of the sound. That's where the growl comes from on many recordings of organs. A good software Hammond includes using expression to control the amp sims of different models of Leslies. I'm sure organs are not the only example of the difference between expression and simple volume changes. A software instrument that includes that will be looking for CC11 expression in a midi file, not CC7.
Piano is one exception because it's all velocity, piano doesn't use pitch bend, modulation or volume controls but like Mario said you need a synth with enough velocity layers on the piano patch to matter. A basic freebie or cheap GM synth usually has none or maybe two at the most but you load up Ivory or Pianoteq that has unlimited velocity because it's modeled not sampled, and that will bring the MST's to life. Of course, those cost real money like $300-$500 just for one instrument.
This goes to Mario's point about using a basic GM synth vs the higher end expensive ones. Biab is GM based and the GM spec does not include a lot of the nuanced midi controls. This is why over the years I've said don't get too excited about loading up Biab midi charts in a DAW and expecting them to sound close to the original Real Track or Drums. Especially the drums. Biab is not capable of embedding the proper midi controls to give that human feel we all love and is the reason the Real Tracks/Drums were invented in the first place.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
Lets stay on Piano for a minute. Lots of those other instruments open up a can of worms.
I want to distinguish between capturing/recording or generating the midi AND the software instrument which plays the midi. I don't use GM sound synths to play midi. I have many midi-instruments in my DAW, including Pioanoteq ($149) and many others. I am sure these have the capability of creating midi which can contain all the whistles and bells - if I know how to play them.
But I have to get my midi tracks generally from other pre-made sources. Like BIAB. So I am trying to understand the quality of the BIAB midi data (and forgive if I am beating a dead horse - I really am trying to comprehend here)
In my study of the BIAB MST-midi and RT-midi within Reaper I can see that there is a considerable about of metadata including CC's and velocity data in both. Here is a picture which shows what is provided in a BIAB midi file to my DAW for use in high end sound synths. This confirms to me that I am getting good piano midi from BIAB. I assume not all the BIAB midi is this detailed but the few I have now looked at, look just like this picture. Perhaps I am over analyzing - I tend to do that (a carry over from the day job) . I am going to look closer at some of my other sources of midi data to see how they compare to BIAB in terms of metadata.
Or maybe the bottom line is just, how does it sound? To me, a lot of the BIAB midi sounds I use are very good.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
A basic freebie or cheap GM synth usually has none or maybe two at the most but you load up Ivory or Pianoteq that has unlimited velocity because it's modeled not sampled, and that will bring the MST's to life. Of course, those cost real money like $300-$500 just for one instrument.
Here is midi content coming out of EZKeys. And yes, this sounds very good also. In my opinoin can not be distinguished from the BIAB RT pianos or MSTs when listening.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
Here is the midi content associated with Scaler 2. Remember this is entirely programming so I am not surprised to see the more minimal content in the metadata. Velocity is all editable in either Scaler 2 or Reaper. But, based on my listening to it, I generally have not use Scaler2 as a sole midi source for a piano track.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
The MIDI data from the BiaB track is all dedicated MIDI CCs and Program change. They include MIDI effects (CC91 and CC93) and Bank Select (00/32) which if one is using a DAW and a good sound source do not need as their DAW will have better effects, either in native mode or through third parties.
They EZKeys do not include a lot of CCs as they expect you to do that type of thing in your DAW. The advantage of an EZKey MIDI file is that you can have more then 4 chord changes and the placement of said chords.
The Scaler 2 is the same as EZKey in that they expect you to work in a DAW.
BiaB MIDI files are basic files much like EZKey and Scaler 2. Take a typical BiaB MIDI track and have it play the most expensive piano software and it will sound just slightly better than a GM piano. But in your DAW you add CC11 and the dedicated CCs for that expensive piano then it will come to life. GM sounds lack those special CCs and they start with a much better sounding piano.
Maybe this will help, it is much like buying a car. You can buy the basic model (like a BiaB MIDI track) and add all of the options that you want (like adding CCs) to get to the final car (track) that you like.
GM sounds are very basic and with little if any layers where as more expensive sounds can have many layers and dedicated CCs. I have not even mentioned key switches!
Got to run but I hope this helps.
I get most of my exercise these days from shaking my head in disbelief.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I am now more confused. I think we are mixing different things here, 1) creating midi data and 2) playing back midi data. Although, it may turn out these are one in the same! But lets stick to piano midi only because I am aware of differences with other instruments and I want this point to be clear.
I (we) don't have any control over how the BIAB midi data was made. It is what it is. The BIAB MSTs midi data includes both note and velocity [Same as a RT midi file I used]. It also has CC64 (Hold Petal) data. It has a assortment of other CC data (shown above) but these appear to be static with no change during playback. When I put this midi data on a track in Reaper and insert Pianoteq 7 (demo:) VST, it sounds wonderful to my ear. So what is BIAB midi data missing that could make things any better? My answer, remember only speaking about Piano midi, is little to nothing. Can we agree on that?
Hold it, maybe I see a bit of light now. Are you suggesting I could add CC data to the BIAB midi data in my daw? Like draw in CCxx for this or CCxx for that or record the Mod Wheel onto the track as it plays. Pianoteq would likely know what to do with that data when it is suppled with the midi data. Those are things I have done with non-piano midi where it may be essential to the sound. That I can understand.
Last edited by MusicStudent; 12/05/2001:51 PM.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
................... Are you suggesting I could add CC data to the BIAB midi data in my daw? Like draw in CCxx for this or CCxx for that or record the Mod Wheel onto the track as it plays. Pianoteq would likely know what to do with that data when it is suppled with the midi data. Those are things I have done with non-piano midi where it may be essential to the sound. That I can understand.
EXACTLY. If your sound source can use those CCs then you can change things like the timbre via filters, add key clicks, use pedals, etc. These will make your bland BiaB piano MIDI track come to life.
I get most of my exercise these days from shaking my head in disbelief.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
OK, thank you. My job is now done here. I now know what I know and have a good idea of what has been done and what can be done and what needs to be done. All of this is now starting to sound familiar to me.
Much appreciated guys.
So regarding the topic question "MIDI Question: Does a MIDI Track Created From a RealTrack Retain Its Humanity?" The answer remains sometimes, but your odds are much better predicting those times based on what we have covered here.
Dan
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
Thanks Mario! Is there a basic guide online you would recommend?
JohnJohnJohn,
There is a really good video series on YouTube explaining midi. +++ HERE +++ is a link to another post that has links to eight videos. Truthfully, the first video will likely answer many of you questions about midi, the other seven just go into more detail.
Thanks Mario! Is there a basic guide online you would recommend?
JohnJohnJohn,
There is a really good video series on YouTube explaining midi. +++ HERE +++ is a link to another post that has links to eight videos. Truthfully, the first video will likely answer many of you questions about midi, the other seven just go into more detail.
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I now know what I know and have a good idea of what has been done and what can be done and what needs to be done. All of this is now starting to sound familiar to me.
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