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Rustyspoon

yeah ! I know, I'm just waiting till the weekend comes and then ill have time for the downloading !, But I do seriously have to get to know the software more as this thread has proved.


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Beatmaster,
I suggest watching video at this link:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=627622#Post627622

It is in part promo, but also shows new features is depth and ways of using them.
Video is 1 hour and 30 minutes long! I am watching it in parts, still not finished smile Done very nicely.

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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Charlie, first let me say I really appreciate you sharing your deep knowledge and work-arounds. Same way I feel about Pipeline and his genius has saved my bacon more than once!
Thank You.


BUT, these complex work-arounds are NOT a solution to poorly designed and implemented software. They are a band-aid and as Rustyspoon correctly observed they are often "complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated".
I completely disagree. Unless you have a very different view of what the words "complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated" are than me, you've bought into the BIAB isn't a multi track recorder and DAW myth. Second, the RealTrack Medley featured was reworked, enhanced and updated in 2019 and 2020 and your statement implies you lack experience using the feature.

Don't get me wrong, they have their place and are GREATLY APPRECIATED!
Yes they do.

BUT they are NOT a substitute for fixing the software.
No problem. The software isn't broken. The BIAB tools you choose to not use for a certain task doesn't mean BIAB isn't capable of doing the task. It simply means you have chosen not to do that task using BIAB.

As an example, I used to code complex apps using Visual Basic. And I was pretty good at it! But occasionally I would hit a wall. A friend and fellow programmer would always remind me that I could "easily" drop into C++ or even assembler to do what I needed to do. And I have no doubt he could have done that. But I couldn't. And even if I could, I preferred to work in at the level where I was proficient rather than deep diving into an unknown area I would never have the need nor time to excel at.
Interesting information but irrelevant other than it validates my point above that you intentionally choose not to do certain tasks BIAB is capable of completing within the program but use methods you're more familiar and comfortable with.

The same thing applies with BIAB. Before 2021 there were 7 tracks available (not including audio). That's it! End of story. 7 tracks.
Not true. Each of those tracks had an additional 10 track sub-mixer.

Yet you claim there are actually 77 tracks? Well, where are they? Can I see them at a glance in the mixer? Can I adjust all parameters of them individually in the mixer like I can the 7 visible tracks? Are they as intuitively obvious in their settings and status that I can, at a glance, see and adjust them?
Yes to each of your questions above.
First and foremost, 70 additional tracks is NOT my claim but is an existing RealTrack feature that precedes my first purchase of a BIAB product. Dr. Gannon has personally posted the fact there's the additional 70 tracks per BIAB Legacy Channel.
So, regardless that I'm the only person you and others are aware that has posted about the fact, there's indisputably been 70 tracks accessible for every BIAB Legacy RealTrack Mixer track for years. They're accessed through the RealTrack Picker. Each Sub-Mixer is visible for the selected track. All of the normal Legacy controls remain intact for the selected BIAB Mixer Channel and each of the additional 10 sub-mixer tracks have their own volume and panning sliders. They each individually have the same visibility and intuitive settings and status so it's easy to see and adjust them.


I think the simple answer to all of these questions is "No"! And this is proven out as you acknowledge most BIAB users do not even know about them. Because they are hidden and/or counter-intuitive.
The only answer is Yes. Sadly the proof that I allege most BIAB users don't know of this feature is not because they're hidden or counter-intuitive but rather users chose to overlook them in 2019, 2020 and 2021 when they were discussed, advertised, demonstrated and explained by PG Music with multiple video demonstrations and tutorials when each of those years were introduced. I have no interest to speculate to how or why such widespread dismissal of these obvious features that are introduced, marketed and claimed as BIAB features and not "workarounds" occurred.

Let me repeat...I am honestly grateful for you sharing your expertise and work-arounds and we are fortunate to have you here doing that. But when someone requests that the mixer be expanded I just wish power users like you would give it a +1 and maybe add there is a work-around available instead of implying that this request has already been fulfilled.
I endorsed others request for additional tracks multiple times across multiple threads. I never had the need to request it myself but just as everyone else, I'm benefiting greatly from this new feature and honestly, it's exceeded my expectations by a huge amount.
My implication this request has been fulfilled was due to extensive remarks rejecting the feature of RealTrack Medleys.

I went through this today to give it a fair shake. And I could see how it might be a useful work-around. But it is most certainly not anywhere nearly as good as having additional mixer tracks!

- you cannot see all of your tracks at a glance without opening the picker and then the medley dialog (which took a long time to load btw)
- you cannot freeze/unfreeze these medley tracks individually
- you cannot control when the medley tracks play except with presets (chorus, 2 bars, 4 bars, etc.)
- you cannot mute/unmute individual tracks in your medley
- the mixer is never updated to reflect what track is actually playing
- you cannot set reverb and tone on the individual tracks in a medley
- you cannot apply a plugin individually to tracks in a medley
- you cannot apply bar settings individually to tracks in a medley
- and probably other "cannots" I didn't even see in my 5-minute evaluation

If, on the other hand, additional full mixer tracks were added, all of the "cannots" above would become "cans".

I continue to feel strongly that to tout 77 tracks is misleading at best. It is an interesting work-around with limited application. No one uses it because it is a bit kludgy and counter-intuitive while also being less functional than true mixer tracks.

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I went through this today to give it a fair shake. And I could see how it might be a useful work-around. But it is most certainly not anywhere nearly as good as having additional mixer tracks!
5 minutes was obviously not enough time for you to give it a fair shake. It's not a work around, it was a major new feature over the last two year version releases. Work-around to what? It can replicate all the functions of using F5 bar settings to mute, return to normal, volume and pan automate... I agree, the new Utility Tracks are much easier, streamlined and powerful.
- you cannot see all of your tracks at a glance without opening the picker and then the medley dialog (which took a long time to load btw)
Why is that necessary? Once it's programmed, you hear it.
- you cannot freeze/unfreeze these medley tracks individually
Yes you can.
- you cannot control when the medley tracks play except with presets (chorus, 2 bars, 4 bars, etc.)
Not true. Those are only pre-sets. You can manually program changes to occur on any measure of any length.
- you cannot mute/unmute individual tracks in your medley
Yes you can.
- the mixer is never updated to reflect what track is actually playing
I believe you mean to reflect what instrument is playing rather than track. The meters show the track playing and you hear the instrument.
- you cannot set reverb and tone on the individual tracks in a medley
Yes you can but again I believe you mean instrument rather than track. Regardless, you can do that too.
- you cannot apply a plugin individually to tracks in a medley
Yes you can regardless if you're referring to instrument instead of track. The tracks play and react normally with no regard to whether the track contains 1 instrument or 10.
- you cannot apply bar settings individually to tracks in a medley
The tracks respond normally to bar settings as far as I know. Using the RT Medley gives the user access to many unadvertised automatic, professional quality BIAB programmed features like cross fades, fade ins, fade outs, smooth transitions between instrument changing, having a single measure fade one instrument while simultaneously fading in the next instrument, multiple instruments playing simultaneously, playing grace and lead in notes between instruments changing and more.
- and probably other "cannots" I didn't even see in my 5-minute evaluation
Fortunately, there are many more can's you've missed -
I continue to feel strongly that to tout 77 tracks is misleading at best. It is an interesting work-around with limited application. No one uses it because it is a bit kludgy and counter-intuitive while also being less functional than true mixer tracks.
What's misleading? I can use this feature to replicate the arrangement of a 77 track DAW with the resultant sound indistinguishable between the two. Everywhere the DAW changes instruments, I can change instruments, every cross-fade between soloists, I can cross-fade. Each sub-mixer for each legacy channel is a 'true' mixer track... as mixer tracks they will function exactly like a ---- Mixer Track!

I appreciate you taking time to give this feature 5 minutes but I hope any other interested user will not give credence to your assessment as being knowledgeable and complete. You're missing elements that set this tool apart from any other. It's providing a gateway to programming a song arrangement that uses BIAB on RealTracks that can be done in a single generation of a song and takes a lot of manual work in a DAW to duplicate.

Here's an example how quickly and efficiently this tool can replicate a common DAW function:

If you have a song where you want to have two tracks of the same acoustic guitar playing simultaneously, one panned hard left and the other hard right with each guitar having a low cut filter, compression, reverb and a limiter, that would require you to generate and export two guitar tracks to a DAW. It would require either applying the four effects to each track or to create an effects bus for those four effects. Using this tool, the task can be completed in a single render onto a single track... faster than you can ever do it in a DAW..

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 12/11/20 01:13 AM.

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Somebody said once, it went something like:
A good piece of technology does not require a manual to operate.

Which is true in a sense with BIAB. Even if you are brand new to program within few hours you can make a "listenable" backing track. However, having only 7 true mixer tracks was limiting experience significantly.

Charlie, now that we have UTs, perhaps it is a good idea to see what will NOT be achievable with Utility Tracks from items you listed, bearing in mind that at some point, likely they will behave same way as RTs... and to think how these "other" functions that are already in place can be "unhidden" and get appreciated by many users? Perhaps if presented properly and supported by many, it might come to life?

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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
I went through this today to give it a fair shake. And I could see how it might be a useful work-around. But it is most certainly not anywhere nearly as good as having additional mixer tracks!
5 minutes was obviously not enough time for you to give it a fair shake. It's not a work around, it was a major new feature over the last two year version releases. Work-around to what? It can replicate all the functions of using F5 bar settings to mute, return to normal, volume and pan automate... I agree, the new Utility Tracks are much easier, streamlined and powerful.
- you cannot see all of your tracks at a glance without opening the picker and then the medley dialog (which took a long time to load btw)
Why is that necessary? Once it's programmed, you hear it.
- you cannot freeze/unfreeze these medley tracks individually
Yes you can.
- you cannot control when the medley tracks play except with presets (chorus, 2 bars, 4 bars, etc.)
Not true. Those are only pre-sets. You can manually program changes to occur on any measure of any length.
- you cannot mute/unmute individual tracks in your medley
Yes you can.
- the mixer is never updated to reflect what track is actually playing
I believe you mean to reflect what instrument is playing rather than track. The meters show the track playing and you hear the instrument.
- you cannot set reverb and tone on the individual tracks in a medley
Yes you can but again I believe you mean instrument rather than track. Regardless, you can do that too.
- you cannot apply a plugin individually to tracks in a medley
Yes you can regardless if you're referring to instrument instead of track. The tracks play and react normally with no regard to whether the track contains 1 instrument or 10.
- you cannot apply bar settings individually to tracks in a medley
The tracks respond normally to bar settings as far as I know. Using the RT Medley gives the user access to many unadvertised automatic, professional quality BIAB programmed features like cross fades, fade ins, fade outs, smooth transitions between instrument changing, having a single measure fade one instrument while simultaneously fading in the next instrument, multiple instruments playing simultaneously, playing grace and lead in notes between instruments changing and more.
- and probably other "cannots" I didn't even see in my 5-minute evaluation
Fortunately, there are many more can's you've missed -
I continue to feel strongly that to tout 77 tracks is misleading at best. It is an interesting work-around with limited application. No one uses it because it is a bit kludgy and counter-intuitive while also being less functional than true mixer tracks.
What's misleading? I can use this feature to replicate the arrangement of a 77 track DAW with the resultant sound indistinguishable between the two. Everywhere the DAW changes instruments, I can change instruments, every cross-fade between soloists, I can cross-fade. Each sub-mixer for each legacy channel is a 'true' mixer track... as mixer tracks they will function exactly like a ---- Mixer Track!

I appreciate you taking time to give this feature 5 minutes but I hope any other interested user will not give credence to your assessment as being knowledgeable and complete.

Here's an example how quickly and efficiently this tool can replicate a common DAW function:

If you have a song where you want to have two tracks of the same acoustic guitar playing simultaneously, one panned hard left and the other hard right with each guitar having a low cut filter, compression, reverb and a limiter, that would require you to generate and export two guitar tracks to a DAW. It would require either applying the four effects to each track or to create an effects bus for those four effects. Using this tool, the task can be completed in a single render onto a single track... faster than you can ever do it in a DAW..

So, I gave it a few more minutes and read everything in the manual but it never mentioned how I would individually apply a plugin effect to one track in my medley. I tried applying a plugin and, of course, the plugin affected every medley track the same. Can you maybe explain how I can apply a plugin to only one track in my medley group?

I tried entering 3 bars for the value of when to change RealTracks but, of course, that didn't work. It only worked when I chose one of the presets. So I guess I must build my song so each instrument change on the medley track happens at exactly the same number of bars? Again, the manual did not explain how I might do this. Maybe you can explain it?

And try as I might I cannot find any instructions for how to freeze individual tracks within the medley group. It either freezes them all or none of them as far as I can tell. Any idea how this can be done?

Same question for bar settings. And for reverb. And for tone.

I am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually know how to do all of these things and I would love it if you could explain them because the manual does not. If it can really do all you are claiming then it may be useful. But, as a seasoned software user and designer, the fact that I could not figure this out does not give me a lot of hope these things are actually possible.

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Originally Posted By: Rustyspoon#
Somebody said once, it went something like:
A good piece of technology does not require a manual to operate.
Lol. Somewhat true. However, some of the greatest yet simplest technology known to the world is packaged with instructions. Look at a box of matches to learn how to light one and make it burn... wink

Which is true in a sense with BIAB. Even if you are brand new to program within few hours you can make a "listenable" backing track. However, having only 7 true mixer tracks was limiting experience significantly.
In Forum posts we've all read the remark over and over by even the most seasoned users that they likely don't use but 10% of BIAB capabilities in the software. BIAB then dutifully gives users only what users ask from it and the users never explore beyond what they take from their BIAB knowledge base. It's clear that unfamiliarity was the significant limiter and not the track count. Each of the seven Legacy Tracks have had an additional 10 channel sub mixer available for use for years... 77 tracks.

Charlie, now that we have UTs, perhaps it is a good idea to see what will NOT be achievable with Utility Tracks from items you listed, bearing in mind that at some point, likely they will behave same way as RTs... and to think how these "other" functions that are already in place can be "unhidden" and get appreciated by many users? Perhaps if presented properly and supported by many, it might come to life?
I completely agree with you. I'm 100% on board. It's my belief that 2021 BIAB has the most significant new features, enhancements and upgrades since the introduction of RealTracks. A concerted team effort from the forum helping novice and experienced users unlock BIAB will benefit everyone. So, Forum members, ask questions. Inquire about "hidden" or unadvertised uses for tools and features you don't currently use. Explore the BIAB we have before thinking it needs to be rebuilt. If something is clunky, awkward, not streamlined and in need of updating - discussing it freely in the forum will expose the deficiencies to everyone and if re-coding in called for, it will be obvious.


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JJJ:
First, let me say that in my reply to you last night I got distracted and did not finish a paragraph to complete my point so I edited it this morning so it better conveys my thoughts. I apologize for the lack of clarity in the original wording.
__________

So, I gave it a few more minutes and read everything in the manual but it never mentioned how I would individually apply a plugin effect to one track in my medley. I tried applying a plugin and, of course, the plugin affected every medley track the same. Can you maybe explain how I can apply a plugin to only one track in my medley group?
I'm starting my first reply by addressing your last comment first. It's not me that you doubt but it's BIAB. I think you suspect I've not claimed publicly I can do a task using BIAB that I can't do. I can explain all of these tasks but here's the rub; Questions and answers are having conflicts with terminology and definitions. Track and instrument need to be used correctly for clarity and application. You and others should come to terms that BIAB functions, reacts and responds like a high level digital multi track recorder. Moving forward, you and others will learn the concept of virtual tracks. Learn there's a difference between a channel and track. Accept the RealTrack Medley sub mixers are 'true' mixers and are as 'real' as a DAW mixer console. Rustyspoon is absolutely right. All of these techniques, features, hidden gems and recording principles can be used with the new Utility Tracks. BIAB's power is expanding by a monumental leap for those willing to adapt to these new features. 2021 BIAB/RB breaks many barriers and limitations - Perceived and real...
Since the introduction of RealTracks, PG Music has not delved deeply into multi track recording theory and concepts. I have no idea if the introduction of Utility Tracks signals a shift in company policy and direction but 2021 BIAB is a prime opportunity for the company to do so.
Some may question if PG Music knows or thinks of BIAB as a multi track recorder. For those that do, watch the first 0:23 seconds of this introduction video of the then 'new' Audio Recording feature from July 7,2015.

Band-in-a-Box for Mac: Recording Audio
To answer your question: It may not be in the manual. You think of the BIAB as seven individual linear tracks. A Medley track is a single track but that one track can have 10 instruments residing on that single track. Think of the 10 instruments as slots that each can hold RealTracks. It may also help to think of the similarity to how a single MIDI track can play 16 midi channels. Think of a RealTrack change similar in function to a MIDI patch change.
To apply an effect to an individual midi patch when it's located on a single track that has multiple patches, the 16 individual channel patches are moved to individual tracks. The same procedure works for those 10 RealTrack slots on a BIAB Mixer Legacy Track.
the multi track principle at play here is to think of the BIAB Mixer as a 7X 11 grid rather than seven single linear tracks.


I tried entering 3 bars for the value of when to change RealTracks but, of course, that didn't work. It only worked when I chose one of the presets. So I guess I must build my song so each instrument change on the medley track happens at exactly the same number of bars? Again, the manual did not explain how I might do this. Maybe you can explain it?
There are two ways to input a RT medley sequence. 1. Use the RT Medley window and 2. Manually enter RT slots using Bar Settings. In your example, use Bar Settings to enter RT's manually.

And try as I might I cannot find any instructions for how to freeze individual tracks within the medley group. It either freezes them all or none of them as far as I can tell. Any idea how this can be done?
Yes. PG Music created a RealTrack to do this. At a bar you want to Mute - select the RealTrack "Silence" then at the bar you want an instrument to begin playing, change the RT from Silence to what ever RT you want to use.

Same question for bar settings. And for reverb. And for tone.
These are done the same as you would a MIDI patch as I described above - Grid rather than linear. I've attached a multi track recording Track Sheet to give an idea how multi track recording has to have structure planning and mapping to get the most ease of use.

I am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually know how to do all of these things and I would love it if you could explain them because the manual does not. If it can really do all you are claiming then it may be useful. But, as a seasoned software user and designer, the fact that I could not figure this out does not give me a lot of hope these things are actually possible.
Once you get a handle that BIAB is a multi track recorder and apply multi track recording techniques and principles to tasks, you'll understand these issues are recording theory issues and not software deficiencies.

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Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 12/11/20 05:56 AM.

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I accept your point about terminology...tracks vs instruments...but I'm pretty sure you've also referred to these as tracks more than once in making your case that we already have more than 7 tracks, right?

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
To apply an effect to an individual midi patch when it's located on a single track that has multiple patches, the 16 individual channel patches are moved to individual tracks. The same procedure works for those 10 RealTrack slots on a BIAB Mixer Legacy Track.

So, short answer...you CANNOT apply a plugin to an individual instrument on a medley track, right? Moving the instrument to its own track would be the only way, right? Same with freeze, reverb and tone, right?

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
Manually enter RT slots using Bar Settings. In your example, use Bar Settings to enter RT's manually.

Changing instruments bar-by-bar is a work-around to not having enough tracks in the mixer. I cannot imagine a scenario where this would be preferable to simply using an available track.

Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
At a bar you want to Mute - select the RealTrack "Silence" then at the bar you want an instrument to begin playing, change the RT from Silence to what ever RT you want to use.

Again, a decent work-around but not nearly as good as simply clicking the mute button on a track!

Thank you for sharing your knowledge about all of this. I honestly appreciate this expanding of my BIAB knowledge!

My take-away is there are complicated, obscure but potentially useful work-arounds to BIAB's 7-track design. These work-arounds may even be considered cool features to power-users such as yourself.

But for the mainstream BIAB user I remain convinced additional tracks would be preferable. Clicking a mute button on an additional track is gotta be better than using bar settings to insert the RealTrack called Silence! And so on!

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Rustyspoon Video is 1 hour and 30 minutes long!

Excellent ! now I'm sorted for the night L.O.L.


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<< but I'm pretty sure you've also referred to these as tracks more than once in making your case that we already have more than 7 tracks, right? >>
I haven't gone back to check my previous comments. It's possible I would reply to someone and use the same term they did but it's more likely I would refer to the instruments as tracks when the RT Medley window is open because the instruments are put on the sub mixer tracks the same as a RT is placed on a BIAB Mixer Legacy track. They are medley instruments when you would refer to them as part of a Medley. Bottom line is there's a total of 77 actual mixer tracks available in the BIAB Mixer in the years prior to 2021 release with the new Utility Tracks.
<< you CANNOT apply a plugin to an individual instrument on a medley track. >>
That's correct.
<< Moving the instrument to its own track would be the only way, right? >>
No, not the only way but that's the easiest way.
<< Same with freeze, reverb and tone, right? >>
Correct for reverb and tone. Not with freeze.
<< Changing instruments bar-by-bar is a work-around to not having enough tracks in the mixer. I cannot imagine a scenario where this would be preferable to simply using an available track. >>
77 track capability is not a work around... AND - 77 tracks is not the maximum tracks available! 77 applies singularly to the first generation render.. I can't imagine a scenario where this would ever be an issue in song project.
<< Again, a decent work-around but not nearly as good as simply clicking the mute button on a track! >>
Actually, using the 'Silence' RealTrack in a Medley is a much better option than muting using Bar Settings and this has been acknowledged in the past by PG staff. The BIAB algorithm 'sees' Silence as an instrument when it's searching, selecting the audio snippets from a RealTrack raw audio file. This means the mute is hardwired into the generation. When F5 Bar Settings menu is used and the user selects Mute and Back to Normal items, the BIAB algorithm has already read the Chord Chart instructions and selected and is rendering the RealTrack audio snippets from the RealTrack audio file. This is why users sometimes experience abrupt cut offs of audio at mute points and have to regenerate the track. This doesn't happen using RT Silence because the BIAB algorithm accommodates the forthcoming 'mute' in the audio it selects by choosing appropriate audio recordings made for intros, endings and smooth transitions that were recorded during the actual RealTrack recording process. Using F5 Mute and Return to Normal are random audio selections made after the algorithm choices that may or may not be played smoothly.
<< My take-away is there are complicated, obscure but potentially useful work-arounds to BIAB's 7-track design. These work-arounds may even be considered cool features to power-users such as yourself. >>
Your take-away is completely wrong. The RealTrack Medley is a specifically designed feature for all BIAB users that is not a work-around for any task nor does it require a user be considered a Power User. The RT Medley feature allows users to easily and quickly create unique, custom and more complex song arrangements that are more advanced than simply generating a Style. It is only one of many features PG Music has built into the BIAB program that makes BIAB the most powerful and versatile song accompaniment program on the market. The fact users haven't taken advantage of its power has nothing to do with complexity or obscurity but in most cases, users apparently rush to quickly to export tracks to a DAW and have never taken the time to review the feature.
<< But for the mainstream BIAB user I remain convinced additional tracks would be preferable. >>
Yes. We've finally got that long requested wish and by users learning how to apply these long standing features that have been neglected diminishes much of the extraordinary power Utility Tracks have brought to BIAB.
<< Clicking a mute button on an additional track is gotta be better than using bar settings to insert the RealTrack called Silence! And so on! >>
Hopefully my 'Silence' explanation has finally dispelled that myth.


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Well, we're making progress! You have admitted that my earlier "cannot" regarding plugins, reverb and tone were correct!

Quote:
Bottom line is there's a total of 77 actual mixer tracks available in the BIAB Mixer in the years prior to 2021 release

No, I think you have made this very point. There are slots for instruments but not additional tracks.

You claimed I can freeze individual instruments on a medley track. Exactly how would I do that?

Quote:
Actually, using the 'Silence' RealTrack in a Medley is a much better option than muting using Bar Settings

I was comparing it to simply pressing the mute button on a track. Having one instrument on a track allows me to do this quickly and easily on the fly during a session. Going to bar settings or medley to set up a mute is not nearly as quick and easy.

Quote:
Your take-away is completely wrong.

Well, we will just have to disagree here! smile

Quote:
The fact users haven't taken advantage of its power has nothing to do with complexity or obscurity but in most cases, users apparently rush to quickly to export tracks to a DAW and have never taken the time to review the feature.

It is always the responsibility of the designer to observe how users use (or do not use) something and adjust for that. Building an awesome thing that most people don't know how to or want to use is a design fail.

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<< Well, we're making progress! You have admitted that my earlier "cannot" regarding plugins, reverb and tone were correct!>>
It's true the 4 plug-in slots on the BIAB Mixer will effect the entire Medley Track and all the instruments residing on that track. That's an intentional and expected result and in no manner at all a flaw or coding error. A Medley Track functions similar to an Fx Bus in a DAW - You route multiple instruments to a specific Fx bus and the Fx bus effects all of the instruments but they're only instruments you want 'effected' by that effect. For instruments you don't want to 'effect' or the single instrument you 'only' want to 'effect', you route differently. It's exactly the same with the BIAB RT Medley and just like with a DAW, there are multiple other tools and methods to apply an effect to a single instrument.
<< "Bottom line is there's a total of 77 actual mixer tracks available in the BIAB Mixer in the years prior to 2021 release." - No, I think you have made this very point. There are slots for instruments but not additional tracks. >>
No offense, but here, you don't understand the concept nor the application. Regardless of the terminology; slots, inserts, channels - on the Legacy Medley Track, these areas are populated using a sub-mixer that has tracks. Open the RT Medley Window and see for yourself.
<< You claimed I can freeze individual instruments on a medley track. Exactly how would I do that? >>
I have explained how to freeze an individual instrument on a Medley Track. Again, you've not grasped the concept and how to adapt the concept to other applications.
<< I was comparing it to simply pressing the mute button on a track. Having one instrument on a track allows me to do this quickly and easily on the fly during a session. Going to bar settings or medley to set up a mute is not nearly as quick and easy.>>
But there's no comparison to be made. A single Track and a Medley Track are two different elements with completely different purposes. I didn't say the Medley creation process was faster or easier than pressing the mute button on a single track. I did say using the 'Silence' RT is better than using the Bar Settings Mute and Return to Normal buttons. PG Music staff have posted the same point here on the forum in the past. I listed solid reasons it's the better choice for when you're using the RT Medley feature.
<< Well, we will just have to disagree here! wink >>
And I still do. wink In good nature of course. You've asked valid questions and taken the discussion of RT Medley's further than any previous conversation I'm aware of. I'm thankful to you for that and I'm sure PG Music is too. This has been the epitome of what a Forum discussion should be, legitimate questions and comments done in a civil manner.
<< It is always the responsibility of the designer to observe how users use (or do not use) something and adjust for that. Building an awesome thing that most people don't know how to or want to use is a design fail.>>
Even if your statement is completely true, no software is responsible to give a user the background theory, principles, techniques and knowledge base for a discipline such as Recording Audio that we're dealing with here. Every question we've discussed have dealt exclusively with recording audio principles, techniques, terminology that have been applied by recording engineers, artists and hobbyists for more than 1/2 a century. There's been no mention of mis-coded software, design flaws - although some questions you've posed have inferred a flaw because you haven't had enough experience with the software feature to fully apply and grasp a concept.

RT Medley, Song Medley, Multi Styles, MIDI converted to audio, RealTracks, Utility Tracks and all the other Recording Audio features built into BIAB - NONE, not a single one is a design flaw.... none...

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 12/12/20 02:05 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

And try as I might I cannot find any instructions for how to freeze individual tracks within the medley group. It either freezes them all or none of them as far as I can tell. Any idea how this can be done?
Yes. PG Music created a RealTrack to do this. At a bar you want to Mute - select the RealTrack "Silence" then at the bar you want an instrument to begin playing, change the RT from Silence to what ever RT you want to use.


I'm also curious how to freeze individual instruments within a medley group. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, I think Charlie's response above explains how to mute instruments within the group, but not how to freeze.

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Originally Posted By: Ric4001
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

And try as I might I cannot find any instructions for how to freeze individual tracks within the medley group. It either freezes them all or none of them as far as I can tell. Any idea how this can be done?
Yes. PG Music created a RealTrack to do this. At a bar you want to Mute - select the RealTrack "Silence" then at the bar you want an instrument to begin playing, change the RT from Silence to what ever RT you want to use.


I'm also curious how to freeze individual instruments within a medley group. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, I think Charlie's response above explains how to mute instruments within the group, but not how to freeze.


You're not misunderstanding Ric4001 and I appreciate you taking time to comment. I did not spell out the step by step instructions completely but hoped I had given enough information that the dots could be connected well enough to complete the task.

My thought is that this portion of this thread has somewhat drifted off topic into the Medley Track feature and away from the OP's original criticism of the Utility Track RealTrack Picker. The two subjects are related, but not the same. They share the fact that both topics rely heavily on users unfamiliarity with long-time BIAB features and I think the forum would be better served if these questions were asked and responded to as individual posts perhaps in the Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Forum.

Nor is this thread the proper venue to teach the simple techniques that allows BIAB to produce tracks and arrangements far more complex, dynamic and full than just selecting and playing a style over a user's entered Chord Chart. For anyone wishing to do so, BIAB can produce a 20 instrument arrangement that brings various soloists in and out. Smoothly transitions between intros, endings, instrumental breaks, riffs and turn around's and perform flawless fade-in's and fade-out's far quicker than projects where the user creates individual tracks, sometimes multiples of individual tracks for comping and then exports these individual tracks that are then imported into a DAW where they are comped, merged and cut/pasted into the desired audio the user desires. BIAB can perform that conglomerate of tasks faster than using the two software programs do collectively and they will sound indistinguishable in arrangement between the two results. Meaning the chosen instruments in each will come in/fade and interchange the same in both arrangements and play the same number of instruments.

I agree with Misha, JJJ and others there's a disconnect with users and these features. Wouldn't it be cool if Dr. Gannon popped in and approved a contest for users to create and post a verifiable single render, solely in-house BIAB song the equivalent of a DAW project of 20 tracks (two full RT Medley Tracks leaving 5 Legacy Tracks for alternate use) giving the winner a free 2021 BIAB upgrade package. What a great motivation it would give to users that to this point haven't delved into BIAB beyond the demonstration stages PG Music has provided over the years. For sure, BIAB is not a one trick pony and it's time to dispel that myth and get the secret out.


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 12/12/20 06:36 AM.

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"In good nature of course. You've asked valid questions and taken the discussion of RT Medley's further than any previous conversation I'm aware of. I'm thankful to you for that and I'm sure PG Music is too. This has been the epitome of what a Forum discussion should be, legitimate questions and comments done in a civil manner."

What a great conversation..! Thank you all...


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Originally Posted By: Ric4001
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle

And try as I might I cannot find any instructions for how to freeze individual tracks within the medley group. It either freezes them all or none of them as far as I can tell. Any idea how this can be done?
Yes. PG Music created a RealTrack to do this. At a bar you want to Mute - select the RealTrack "Silence" then at the bar you want an instrument to begin playing, change the RT from Silence to what ever RT you want to use.


I'm also curious how to freeze individual instruments within a medley group. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, I think Charlie's response above explains how to mute instruments within the group, but not how to freeze.

I remain unconvinced about this specific claim as well as the more general implication that the medley feature is a reasonable alternative to simply adding more full mixer tracks.

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<< I remain unconvinced about this specific claim as well as the more general implication that the medley feature is a reasonable alternative to simply adding more full mixer tracks. >>

I'm happy you were willing to question and discuss the RT Medley feature and not summarily dismiss it. So to finish our discussion with a bit of flair - I've posted a link below to a song I recorded back in 2017 that all the instruments and backing vocals were totally done in BIAB using only BIAB tools, features and tracks.

I even returned to this song when vocal Ooh's and Aah's were introduced with the 2018 version of BIAB and again used the Medley mixer to add 4-6 additional vocal tracks to the dozen or so instruments used in the initial project.

You may remain unconvinced, but I can assure you and others it can be done and done so the finished product sounds full, dynamic, clearly mixed with frozen tracks, instrument effects added and not a single work around was ever used to harm this production. BIAB is the real deal and it will capably execute each and every task I've claimed it will.

You may be able to reconcile the lack of conviction you have about BIAB's ability to freeze an individual instrument on a Medley Track from hearing an audio example I'm posting here. It will prove the general implication the RT Medley feature is a more than a reasonable alternative to simply adding more full mixer tracks. Think of the RT Medley feature as a predecessor of the Utility Tracks rather than an alternative.

To freeze an individual instrument on a Medley Track, you must have another track with the same instrument on it in order to freeze that instrument because it also must be a physical copy of that audio snippet since BIAB will not reliably or quickly otherwise regenerate the exact audio one is trying to 'freeze'. Freezing and similar effects and techniques must be done using the BIAB Mixer in a grid layout instead of in a linear way.

Here's the song I mentioned above where all the instrumentation and vocal Ooh's and Aah's were done using the RT Medley and other BIAB tools and features.

My Sad Story

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 12/12/20 04:51 PM.

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Charlie I appreciate your sharing of both your knowledge and your enthusiasm! As I said, I remain unconvinced that Medley tracks are as good as additional mixer tracks but I enjoyed both the conversation and expansion of my BIAB knowledge! So Thank You for that!

One thing that immediately caught my interest is the layering of vocal RTs on a medley track to accomplish thickening. Let me ask you this...if I put 10 vocal RTs on a medley track does BIAB automatically manage these so that they all generate slightly different sounds at every bar? I know I have read that BIAB does this in the regular mixer but even there I have occasionally run into a bar or two where identical riffs were used and that ends up in a doubling of that bit of audio rather than a blending of different parts. In those cases I simply timeshift one of the dupes and it sounds fine. But I was wondering if the medley feature manages this for us.

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<< Charlie I appreciate your sharing of both your knowledge and your enthusiasm! As I said, I remain unconvinced that Medley tracks are as good as additional mixer tracks but I enjoyed both the conversation and expansion of my BIAB knowledge! So Thank You for that! >>
You're welcome. I'm sure there's also others that remain unconvinced but from this conversation they've learned there's now "access and use of" additional tracks they were previously unaware were there. Your thoughtful and provocative questions have probably prompted curiosity to how users can possibly adapt the RT Medley into their own workflow. Maybe they'll question are there other 'lost' gems like the RT Medley feature to learn about and explore. (There are!)

There are many variables to whether Medley Tracks are as good as having more BIAB Mixer Legacy Tracks and those variables value will be answered by how they fit into each users workflow.

To DAWser's like yourself, they may be of limited use because you already have a solid workflow you're comfortable with, get great results from, and have a stable knowledge base of the software's and techniques.

To Accompaniment users that program songs using only BIAB to create backing tracks, not progressing to finishing their projects in a DAW and don't plan to upgrade to version 2021, the RT Medley Tracks may influence and change their entire procedure to how they construct and arrange their song product providing them the ability to enormously enhance the complexity, fullness, dynamics, uniqueness, professionalism and quality of their backing tracks. There's plenty of "ah-ha" moments (or Ooh-Aah's as in your case) to be discovered...

Here's a 'not in the manual' real-life example I had where I quickly, easily and efficiently was able to increase the RealTrack audio file content available for a RealTrack Legacy Track instrument by converting that track into a RT Medley track and combined other BIAB features together. I had a guitar solo part that wasn't coming together like I wanted. The Soloist was Dwight Sills and I loved the sound, timbre and feel but the solo wasn't just right for me. The three obvious options are to keep regenerating the part over and over until I find something suitable or to use the multi riff feature to search it out or to generate multiple tracks and 'comp' a solo.
I did this fourth option.
. I opened the RT Medley window (BIAB Feature)
. I filtered my search for RT Artist - Dwight Sills (BIAB Feature)
. Search results were 5 Dwight Sills RealTracks. Swing parts, Solos, Rhythms and Even parts at varying BPM's. But on each of the RT's, Dwight played the same guitar and amp set up! It was obvious the same player using the same guitar and amp set up. Lot's of new audio to choose from.
. I created a Medley file solely within BIAB and without having to save and export any WAV files and the RT Medley feature composed a Medley Track from 4 of those RT audio files with seamless and smooth transitions between the instrument changes. Perfect Fades and even single bars where two instruments sounded out together as one instrument faded out as the next instrument was fading in. The BIAB algorithm did all of those functions automatically, commercial grade, radio ready professionally and with a quality equal to and indistinguishable from what would have to been done manually in every DAW on the market. It truly was as simple as opening the RT Medley Window, searching and selecting only 4 RealTracks and generating the track... (BIAB Feature)


<< .if I put 10 vocal RTs on a medley track does BIAB automatically manage these so that they all generate slightly different sounds at every bar? >>
Yes. The same as a BIAB Mixer Legacy Track, the RT Medley Tracks will each independently and separately generate slightly different renders of each whole track. Additionally, the RT Medley Window has a 'Duplicate' button to allow you to select from 2-10 entries of the same RT at the single click of a button.

However, the same as with a Legacy Track generation and because of there's a maximum limit of available audio from a single RealTrack audio file, the algorithm may still on occasion select the same audio clip for multiple tracks in the same measure. If I were doing this, I would mix up the RealTrack vocals between several different selections and if necessary, apply a mild application of a 'Chorus' DXi or VST plug in across the whole track.


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