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Songwriting
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Joined: May 2016
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OP
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 368 |
Hi,
once again I'm in the songwriting process, and as usual some of the songs are good and many more are just repetitions of what i already have done before, or just songs with maybe a part or 2 which is good.
So the big question - when do you know, that you have written a good song - what is your checklist to verify your songs' quality?
Here's my flow:
1. I try to grab a melody/tune I have on my mind or I sit an freestyle on my guitar until something useful comes up.
2. I put the parts together in BIAB and works with the parts and the score until I have a complete song.
3. I give the SGU file a name - which 8 out of 10 times ends up defying the lyrics
4. Then it's time to create some decent lyrics ( a process that goes from painful to playfully easy)
5. I then spend a couple of hours playing and singing, while adjusting chords, notes and/or lyrics - but I don't record anything at all - just left with the SGU file and lyrics.
6. I leave the song for at least a week
7. After a week or more I open the song and if I remember the song, it has passed the first test. If I forgot it is pretty much end of the line for that song.
8. I try out the song in alternative arrangements and styles for proof test - it must work with at least 5 different Styles to pass this stage
9. I leave it for at least a month or so (while writing new songs)
10. Once the "due dilligence" is over, I pick it up again - and then I verify whether I still feel enthusiastic to play and sing it....even more important if I still remember the song.
The songs that reach beyond these 10 steps are being recorded, mixed and mastered, and are listed in the queue to be selected for publishing on single, maxi or album.
Last check - do I still like it and do I still feel that I want to share the work public?
Anything I share has passed all of the above, because then I know I at least like the song myself.
So how is your flow or thoughts on creating and selecting and liking your own work?
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,449
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You are far more methodical than I am. I just know when I have a winner. I also know that if after doing nothing but writing for up to 24 hours, if I’m still fighting to finish the song, it probably isn’t a keeper.
The best advice you gave is to let time elapse. In your case you did that a few times. I admire your discipline.
The most creative advice you gave is to audition the song in multiple styles. Bravo. You have the perfect tool in BIAB. I’ve had my songs performed and recorded primarily by small jazz groups, but also woodwind quartets, brass choirs, jazz ensembles, chamber strings and a symphony orchestra. You never know where your song might wind up.
I write instrumentals, but my songs have been given lyrics and recorded commercially, so I try to anticipate what the title would be by hearing a phrase as the hook. At least then, the lyricist will be on the right track and I can live with their choices.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Songwriting
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Enthusiast
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You are far more methodical than I am. I just know when I have a winner. Same here! If it makes you wanna dance or it's stuck in your "head's jukebox", you know or you feel it's great!  I write instrumentals, but my songs have been given lyrics and recorded commercially, so I try to anticipate what the title would be by hearing a phrase as the hook. At least then, the lyricist will be on the right track and I can live with their choices.
Any advice on how to find lyricists? I do write lyrics myself, but melodies come so much easier...
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2000
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You could do it the way I did. I married her.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Interesting process but I strongly disagree with "don't record anything at all"! I find that some pretty interesting melodies happen largely by accident and not capturing them does not mean they were no good rather it means that I failed to capture them for later improvement. Didn't McCartney have a story about Yesterday just coming to him and he worried that it must be something he had heard and accidentally nicked? What a shame if he'd let it go and never managed to get it back!
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Songwriting
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Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 58
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You could do it the way I did. I married her. Lucky man, you. 
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Songwriting
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,286
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I will know when I have written a good song when someone pays me a lot of money to obtain the rights to said song  Running and ducking for cover
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Songwriting
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Joined: Dec 2011
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How long is a string? Other than some collabs and PD songs I write a lyric with Janice’s input. Then she takes it and creates a chord progression and a melody. I’m most lucky with that - and with her in so many ways! We then put a BiaB band together and work out the arrangement in BiaB. After which which we move the tracks to Logic Pro for mixing and her vocals. Multiple generations of many of the tracks will be auditioned with typically some comping. We are not prolific with J&B songs; however, if we like a lyric we’ve written then the melody, vocal, arrangement and production is gonna happen. It may even change genres during that process but, again, if we like the lyric it’s going to be produced. And throughout that process our objective is topmost to infuse all aspects with soul. Sometimes we will run it by a few very talented folks whom we know we can trust to be insightful and straightforward regarding their suggestions. After mastering we’ll invite “reviews” by posting it on the showcase forum and on Facebook. We are not thin skinned during this process and we welcome any civil comments. FWIW, etc., etc. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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Songwriting
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Aug 2018
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What the heck. I'll riff off of your list.
1. I try to grab a melody/tune I have on my mind or I sit an freestyle on my guitar until something useful comes up.
These days I "write" both with guitar and with BIAB. I normally don't pick up the guitar until I have the beginnings (at the minimum) of a song...a line or two and melody. Then I work out the chords and complete the song...sometimes in one sitting, sometimes over several. I will sit down with BIAB and work up an arrangement with those chords, rhythmic changes (rests, shots, holds, pushes, etc.)...what I call "bandifying" a song.
A large part of this is "listening to the BAND". I can't and don't have every musical idea.
The process when starting with BIAB is different. I usually don't have a lyric--at least not a complete one. I work out an interesting "backing" and set it aside to see if some lyrical idea 1. is necessary, or 2. comes to me. I've got a pretty good idea about the melody somewhere during this process or by it's end. Maybe even more importantly, I have a good sense of the "phrasing", the vocal rhythm, by then as well. This is often enough to "help" write a lyric.
If this fails to excite me, then I'll shelve it permanently.
2. I put the parts together in BIAB and works with the parts and the score until I have a complete song.
Similar with me.
3. I give the SGU file a name - which 8 out of 10 times ends up defying the lyrics
I don't worry too much about a file name. I'll name it something that helps me remember what it is. Might be part of the lyric, might be the "style" name, might be something else like an auto-name from BIAB. What I usually DO, is make copies (as many as I need) to produce tracks I think I can use when it comes to "production" in DAW. These may change certain elements of the arrangement in ways that a single .sgu. can't accommodate.
4. Then it's time to create some decent lyrics ( a process that goes from painful to playfully easy)
I don't write lyrics just so a song will have them. If I can't write a lyric that excites me, then it just isn't going to get written. End of story.
5. I then spend a couple of hours playing and singing, while adjusting chords, notes and/or lyrics - but I don't record anything at all - just left with the SGU file and lyrics.
I will have done this either on acoustic or in working up arrangement in BIAB. Call it productive practice. I usually don't record, but not so much as a test. The final "backing" for the song takes place ultimately in DAW. I keep my options open until then. Vocals come last, but I already know how they are going to be delivered.
6. I leave the song for at least a week
7. After a week or more I open the song and if I remember the song, it has passed the first test. If I forgot it is pretty much end of the line for that song.
I'm not that methodical, but it really doesn't take me a week to know if it's something I want to completely finish.
8. I try out the song in alternative arrangements and styles for proof test - it must work with at least 5 different Styles to pass this stage
That's part of the "arrangement" and "pre-production" process I described earlier, but I have no hard-and-fast rule or any particular genre-bias.
9. I leave it for at least a month or so (while writing new songs)
10. Once the "due dilligence" is over, I pick it up again - and then I verify whether I still feel enthusiastic to play and sing it....even more important if I still remember the song.
Nope. If I haven't gotten excited by it by the time I'm ready for production/recording/mixing then it's not going to happen. I MIGHT give a bit of extra time to give some more thought to tightening a lyric, but mostly because I despise recording vocals and absolutely don't want to have to do it again. Strike while the iron is hot and enthusiasm is there.
I've written enough to know when a line or two might be a little weak. But I consider everything I sing on to be a "demo" as far as the "public" is concerned, and really mainly meant to be "enjoyed" by me. Others are, of course, welcome to join me in enjoyment, but I am my primary audience as a "recording artist".
The songs that reach beyond these 10 steps are being recorded, mixed and mastered, and are listed in the queue to be selected for publishing on single, maxi or album.
Last check - do I still like it and do I still feel that I want to share the work public?
Anything I share has passed all of the above, because then I know I at least like the song myself.
I guarantee you if I don't like it in the end (or something major about it) nobody else will ever hear it. At least not outside the privacy of my own home.
I will leave subjective sentiments like "is it good" to others. I'm most happy if I can get Bud and Janice to say it has soul. If I think so too, it's a keeper. I'm not too displeased with my batting average over the years, all things considered. Sometimes it's easier than other times, but that's not the measure of happy.
I THINK one reason is that I simply don't finish what doesn't make me overall happy throughout the whole dang doing of the thang.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,414
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,414 |
I believe that if you like it and you're proud of what you created, that's all that matters. Music should be a audio representation of you and your emotions. Let a couple of your friends listen to it and see how they feel cause yes constructive criticism is great but again, make music for you.
That's my two cents! Bad advice, probably :P
Cheers,
Deryk
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 253
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Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 253 |
It's an odd thing, but in all the years that I've been writing professionally, and having worked with so many others who have done so, I've found that as songwriters we are the worst judge of our own writing. Some of the songs that I feel are my best work don't seem to move the needle for other people, and yet songs that I wrote and hardly gave a second thought to wound up getting recorded.
I think after a while you "know" that you've written something good just by comparative analysis...how does it stack up to your best work.
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Songwriting
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Roger, I've experienced that, and learned over decades that my simplest songs are the ones people like, so I build that into my current writing. If they hum it after a concert, I know it's a winner. You can also see this at work on the number of likes on YouTube, for example.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,591
Expert
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Taking it from the point of view of the emotion communicated by the words and music, I'd say generally, working within the 1-4-5-6m framework as many do; 8, 12, 16 bar, Intro, Verse, Chorus, Outro.... sound familiar? The words convey certain emotions and so do the melodies and chord changes. To my way of thinking of it, it is a lot easier to nail down the chords, as Band in the Box is perfect for doing, within a kind of general outline of the poem. It is on heck of a lot easier to adapt the lyrics to the comps once they have been established than it is the other way around. I can see how a songwriter could adapt to doing it either way, through experience and talent, though. I doubt there a single way to compose.
To respond to the question, my thought is that when the feeling of your music syncs with the feeling of your words, you've pretty well got it down.
Last edited by edshaw; 12/29/20 11:50 AM.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,333
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Expert
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It's an odd thing, but in all the years that I've been writing professionally, and having worked with so many others who have done so, I've found that as songwriters we are the worst judge of our own writing. Some of the songs that I feel are my best work don't seem to move the needle for other people, and yet songs that I wrote and hardly gave a second thought to wound up getting recorded.
I think after a while you "know" that you've written something good just by comparative analysis...how does it stack up to your best work. Ha....Oh, the irony of our song writing efforts. For me.... I write simple music/arrangements and concentrate more on lyrical continuity/story line originality. But...whether I succeed in conveying those criteria are determined by the kind listeners. So...if I get the courage to throw one of mine up against this (or any other) forum wall for my peer ears and get generally positive responses....that is 'good' enough for me. I know my place in the music world and my material won't ever have any mass appeal. It's what we do....great creative therapy for me. Have a great day all....
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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,726
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I can think of at least a dozen snarky responses.....
I will resist the temptation to use them.....
A good song.... How do I know when I have written one? I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that because the things I think are good get little response from the forums and less from the internet and zero from the folks that choose the songs for the artists....
the things I think are throw away tunes, things I write to get to the next good song, well those seem to be the ones that garner the most attention but still zero from the folks who choose the songs for the artists.
So, you see my quandary? I'm not sure I really know. So I simply write and let the chips fall where they may.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Songwriting
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 368
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 368 |
There are so many good responses, and thank you all for taking the time to reply.
My main purpose of asking was to review my own approach and surely learn from the comments. What I've summarized is, that what I expect myself to be good songs often might not be perceived the same way by listernes, and that is really an interesting thought to have in mind. That doesn't mean I will give up writing songs I find good myself, but it is good to have in mind, that I might cut 10-15% down on the self criticism early in my composing fase.
I wish you all a very happy new year - hopefully 2021 will let us return to life as we knew it from 2019.
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jan 2020
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all.
I HAVE VERY STRONG VIEWPOINTS ABOUT THE SONGWRITING PROCESS.
ive ridden the crazy songwriting horse round more than a few blocks.
did courses years ago etc etc etc.
probably other people can identify with personal doubts like >>
does my song suck, am i good enough, will people laugh at me etc etc blah blah blah.
THIS TYPE OF SELF DOUBT IS A CREATIVITY KILLER IMHO.
thus my RULE 1 IS :
1. JUST DO IT, and cast all self doubt/worry aside.
my RULE 2 is :
2. TO THY SELF BE TRUE.
ie if you get off on your song thats all thats important.
YOU CANT SECOND GUESS THE REST OF THE WORLD !
YOULL DRIVE YOURSELF CRAZY !.
needless to say , after many years debating with myself and many other musos on writing songs , i'm at peace.
i do my best and thats it. and if others hate the song i take my bricbats as they come.
I WRITE SONGS COS IT MAKES ME HAPPY ! MY BOTTOM LINE.
finally, think on this. how many brilliant songs, right now are sitting on songwriters hard drives around the world that are wonderfull, that remain un-issued due to self doubt/worry.
heres something personal i'll share with you all.
my beautifull wife would have me write love songs only, lol.
she likes my love songs. and i HAVE written a few.
i think ive written songs in most popular muso genres.
but at my heart i'm a bad boy rocker. not hard core metal much. and not 50's style , but, well you know what i mean.
i'm mellowing though with age lol.
i like melody in songs. and i like a song to rock out.
i also like injecting comedy into songs.
i'll belt out any darn vocs in any genre from opera, thru church magnificats, thru metal etc . and have done so over the years in various muso groups.
whats bugging me now is , as i get older i cant hit the very high notes like i used to.
SO I AGREE WITH DERYK. KUDOS TO DERYK IMHO.
KEEP YOURSELF HAPPY FIRST !
ive done about 300 originals in my life in big studios/small studios down to junk cassette MTR's.
also bout 90 originals useing biab/rb (before rb powertraks), and reaper. never regretted a moment. its in my blood.
i just like a nice life with my wife, who, btw just brought me a lovely cup of tea. so i'll bug out now with the words happy new year to all.
muso. STAY POSITIVE !!
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/12/21 02:18 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Songwriting
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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I know I have written a good song as soon as I finish it.
Because in the final analysis, all that really matters is whether I like it. If I don't like it, it sucks. If it sucks, I erase it. Or figure out what I don't like about it and fix it.
But usually I erase it. Maybe 3 months later I will revisit the idea and the LAST thing I want is for the old effort that sucked to affect my thought process. I have been working on a silly Mexican song for 7 months. I keep going back and I keep tabling it. It just isn't coalescing the way it should, so it's not a keeper.
Yet.
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Songwriting
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Journeyman
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Posts: 617 |
Roger, I see you are associated with NSAI so I'll give my take and see if you agree.
I joined NSAI back in 2017 and spent the first year sending in my songs for evaluation and I was disappointed when all of the feedback was about unclear lyrics and dated melodies. Once I got over the initial shock I started to incorporate their input into my songs and, lo and behold, the quality of my songs started to improve. By the time 2020 rolled I was able to pen 9 "One to Watch" songs as designated by NSAI evaluators. Does that mean I'm a pro songwriter? Of course not, but since my goal has always been to have others record my songs I knew that had to appeal to today's market, which I am getting better at. Regardless of whether a publsiher ever picks up one of my songs or not, I can say I am enjoying much more success (and the entire process as well) now then before NSAI.
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Songwriting
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I think it is important to decide why you would write any song. Is the reason to become commercially successful? Is the reason because you like to write songs and don't care about money? Is the reason because you want to be liked and accepted by other people?
Obviously there can be many motivation to write a song. The approach and process needs to fit the end goal.
Nothing more than a sheet of paper is needed to write a song if you are a highly trained and skilled musician. The other end of that spectrum is the multi million dollar studio with more or less unlimited resources. BIAB is a tool that sets somewhere in the middle. It can only do what it is designed to do.
Professional songwriters with a lot of experience may be able to recognize a really good song when they see or hear it. Most songwriters are the least qualified to recognize a good song.
Weather or not a lot of people like one of your songs depends on who sings it. If I write a good song and post it somewhere it is very unlikely anyone will pay any attention no matter how good it is. If Luke Bryan decides to record it everything changes considerably.
As far a using BIAB goes, it is well equipped to to give generic answers to the question of what style best suits this song. It is very good at providing a easy method of construction a simple chord structure for a song, if and only if that structure will fit into the restrictions of the software.
Finally, the way you know that you have written a really good song is if many famous artist have recorded it and it continues to generate revenue year after year. That would be a good start but even that would not make you a Bernie Taupin ...lol
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: The Newly Designed Piano Roll Window
In this video, we explore the updated Piano Roll, complete with a modernized look and exciting new features. You’ll see new filtering options that make it easy to focus on specific note groups, smoother and more intuitive note entry and editing, and enhanced options for zooming, looping, and more.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
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