PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic A question for Sax players

When listening to sax solos I hear a lot of different tones - mellow sax, "wet" sax (as in Baker Street) and rock sax, as in 1950's songs.
Where do the different tones come from - is it the instrument, the reed or mouthpiece, or the player?
Just curious.

It’s all of it. There’s no key on the sax for ‘hard’ etc. but the material, design and bore make a certain sound more likely. The mouthpiece material and shape helps even more. The strength of the reed helps make a hard, soft, full, airy tone etc. And the player, with his or her breathing, approach, experience and skill controls all of it. Paul Desmond and Charlie Parker and David Sanborn could exchange saxes and you would still instantly recognize who is playing. It’s everything, but mostly the player.

And then there’s alto like Baker Street, and tenor like 50’s rock bands, and ...

I found this question truly interesting and was looking forward to the answer. Thanks Keith and Matt.

A similar question could be made of many instruments. My father used to take pride in being able to play a trumpet or cornet really quietly and making them sound smoother than most players.

It would be interesting to hear from folks using different instruments and how they acquire different tones.

Thanks again Keith and Matt.

Tony

My answer fox sax applies to trumpet, too. For a first step, can you tell if a sax player is playing alto, soprano, or tenor? There are recordings that would fool many.

Can you tell if I play trumpet or cornet? And which trumpet? My ‘regular’ Bb instrument, or my C, D/Eb, F/G or A/Bb piccolo? Or flugelhorn, my main instrument? And then, if I swap horns with another player, we will each still sound mostly like we normally do.

Confused yet?

If it’s mostly the player, why do I have three Bb trumpets? Each has different characteristics I like for different music, and although I could use any one of them for any purpose and you probably wouldn’t know the difference, I would. Plus I have two mouthpieces I exchange depending on the music and style. Some trumpet players bring six or more to a gig. Crazy, but I could name names, and yet you couldn’t tell which one he used.

As I said in a similar post regarding guitar the same sort of thing applies there. The first thing I would check with guitarists for example is how hard one gripped their plectrum a soft grip results in a different sound to a really firm grip.

The ability to change the playing style is what separates many musicians.

Tony

Definitely 90% the sax player.

Breath support, embouchure (mouth on the mouthpiece and reed), even changing the shape of the player's oral cavity can change the sound of the sax.

A good player can make his/her sax sound in many ways, from a sub-tone to a razor's edge. Quite a few famous sax players develop a signature sound which identify them on their recordings, but most are capable of doing much, much more.

I try to be versatile and have played in jazz, blues, rock, Latin, and other bands (being a Chameleon means greater possibilities of gigging). I'll use the same sax/mouthpiece/reed/horn to play a mellow jazz ballad ad I will to play a Junior Walker song. The difference is in the things I wrote about above. I try to play what is appropriate to the song I'm playing.

Plus there are things that can't be changed, the resonance of the body of the person playing the sax. I could duplicate Stan Getz's sax, reed, and mouthpiece and work to sound similar, but I could never sound exactly like Stan did.

Next it's the mouthpiece. How wide the tip opening is, how large/small is the chamber, and to a lesser extent what is the mouthpiece made of. Some sax players go crazy with mouthpieces. I've known guys with scores of mouthpieces and are still searching for the perfect piece. I hope they find it.

The reed is related to the tip opening. Larger tip openings require softer reeds, but there still is a variance in reed strength due to the players preferences.

Then comes the horn itself. The shape of the bore and the density of the brass affect the tone as well.

After saying all that. The great Charlie Parker had a drug problem. Often his horn was in a pawn shop, so he borrowed horns. He even played on a Grafton plastic sax and still sounded like Charlie Parker.

It's mostly the player.

When it comes to recording the saxophone, the mic, EQ and all those other tools can shape the tone.

I remember trying to record my Alto with a Shure SM58 on a 4 track reel-to-reel Teac back in the 1980s. It sounded quite a bit like a clarinet on tape. Using a Sennheiser 421MD made all the difference in the world.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Interesting discussions here. Much more to it than I thought!

Jeff

Microphones. Yes. I try to record on one of two mics, because it makes an enormous difference in how my sound translates to recording. I prefer a Royer 121 ribbon with dBooster on low, but will also use an ancient RCA studio ribbon if they have one, or in a pinch, an AKG 414.

Loves Notes' comments. He's a far better sax player than I am. A real one. I only play sax and flute for the shock value on stage, and to learn how to write for them. Everything Notes said is accurate.

Trumpet and sax are not easy, and not as simple as they may look.

Curious here. When you use 2 mics, are they right next to each other? A trumpet guy I worked with here, as well as a couple of sax players and almost EVERY guitar player I ever recorded with, used multiple mics at different distances. One guitarist was recording with 4 mics. One was 9 inches from his cabinet, another was about 6 feet, another at 10, and another at about 15 facing away from the amp. It seemed strange, but when he mixed those 4 mics they sounded huge, thick, and amazing. The slight amount of delay from those mics at different distances were surprisingly effective. I saw him experiment with number of mics, type of mics, placement all in line and some off to the side... he spent a lot of time on that. And he did those same experiments with different amps.

Have you done this with trumpet? Are the sound characteristics of a trumpet such that multiple mic techniques would matter? I can tell you with guitars having such a wide range of frequency from that open bottom string to the octave up on the top string that mics at different distances all sounded different as the sound waves fell off at different distances.

This is a real interesting thread.

I have one question about sax, or actually any reed instrument, and that is how does the amount of moisture in a reed affect the instrument? If it does have a influence on the sound how does one keep it at a constant moisture?

OK I guess I did have two questions.

It's mainly for pliability. If it's bone dry the vibrations are more "brittle" and the reed doesn't doesn't marry well with the aperture of the mouthpiece. I only soak mine for a minute or so and usually with saliva, though some drench them by soaking them in a glass of water. When I have not used the sax for a few songs and it's time to play it I will work up as much saliva as possible and hold it in my mouth to soak it while waiting for the time to play. They don't dry out THAT fast where a song or two will matter that much.

Eddie, to be clearer, I meant if I can choose or bring a mic for horns, I like to use one of the two choices I listed. One mic at a time. To do otherwise introduces phasing considerations etc.

I have on occasion had recording engineers use two mics on my horn in a Blumlein pattern, though.

The only instrument I play that they always like to use two mics on is a vibraphone.

The acoustic guitar can really benefit with two mics as you say, and if it has a pickup, blending in a little of that, too. Whole different subject.

Mario, horn players have a tough relationship with spit, and not just on the floor. Too much can collect around a reed. Little bits of spit can leak around the corners of horn player's embouchure when you get tired. Both of these can be picked up on mic and mess up a take. Vocalists, too: I've seen vocalists eat vinegar potato chips to keep their lips from making little smacking sounds. You do whatever it takes, and a good producer will look for these things.

Hi,thank you all for the information, I found it very informative.
Being a keyboard player I find it easy to change from, say a honky tonk piano to a baby grand, or a electric piano. It's just a flick of a switch as they say.

I've worked with a few sax, clarinet & trumpet players over the years and I can't recall ever seeing them changing the reed/mouthpiece to attain a variance of tone. And I've never seen them bring more that one instrument to a gig, except if they play both tenor & alto saxes.

An interesting topic.

Too dry makes the sound edgy and the reed less flexible. Too wet makes it more muddy and the reed too flexible.

Too dry makes it harder to control when playing soft, too wet makes it harder to control when playing loud.

It's hardly ever "just right" which is why we fuss with reeds all the time.

Moving the reed closer or farther from the edge of the mouthpiece can compensate a bit, so you will see players fiddling with reed placement as the evening goes on.

The worst thing for multi-instrumentalists is when the sax sits on the stand for a while the reed can warp as it dries out unevenly. The first 30 seconds or so of playing after that is frustrating as it won't do all you ask of it.

Some people soak their reeds in a glass of water or vodka before playing and spend a lot of time trying to make them perfect. I put the reed in my mouth while assembling the sax to wet it, and then put it on the mouthpiece and play. I use my embouchure to compensate for the irregularities.

Some folks go to synthetic reeds, and I tried every one of them and decided they aren't for me. First of all the tone isn't as complex. But worse than that, I can't change the tone and get all the variances of sound I'm used to getting from a cane reed.

I like to put a lot of vox humana into my playing, changing vowel sounds, brightness/mellowness, sub-tones, over-blowing, etc. The synthetic reeds limit that.

And if that isn't enough, each reed responds differently. Some are better than others.

As with any wind instrument embouchure makes a big difference as well; Where do you put your mouth on the reed, how much pressure, and a number of other things. We can adjust that while playing too.

Also: Where you put the ligature (the clamp that holds the reed against the mouthpiece) and how tight/loose you clamp it makes a difference as well. I tend to like it on the loose side and farther back on the mouthpiece.

Then, like strings, they go through their life. When the reed is new, it's too unflexible, it needs a break-in period. Then for a while it's perfect. Later it gets too soft, and it's time to put it in the compost bin.

Whenever you play an instrument for enough time you learn there is more than just playing notes.

Guitar is more than putting a finger on a fret and picking a string; fret finger pressure, pick angle, pick force, how firmly you are holding the pick, how close to the bridge and so on.

Piano players change the way they strike the keys to modify the sound.

Even drummers change the sound by where on the head they hit, how tightly/loosely they hold the stick, the angle the stick hits the head, and so on.

Of the instruments I play (sax, flute, wind synthesizer, guitar, bass, keyboards, & drums), I find the sax to have the most vox humana. But that might be because I've been playing it the longest and I play the others in various degrees of proficiency (or incompetence)

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Everything Notes said resonates. Plus, in each box of ten soprano sax reeds, I might be able to use two of them.

Soprano sax is the most finicky about reeds and also about intonation.

When I started playing wind synthesizer, I sold my soprano. On the physical modeling Yamaha VL70m synth module, there is a very good soprano sax patch that is close to Kenny G's tone.

For the one or two soprano songs I do, it's good enough. If I were to play soprano all night, it wouldn't be.

I mostly play tenor. When I was 30 years old I targeted the senior citizen's market; yacht clubs, country clubs, condominiums, and retirement developments. It's a very good market here in South Florida, and I was never without a gig until COVID hit. Tenor seems to work best for that age group.

As the people who grew up in the Beatles to 1980s era moved in to 'god's waiting rooms' I play a lot more guitar than I used to on the gig, so the reed drying out is a constant bugaboo for me. But I just deal with it. I've been playing so long I know what it can and can't do until the warp is played out.

I'm a much better sax player than I am a guitarist. But I get by just fine as long as I play within my limitations. It's my newest instrument and the one I practice the most on.

I'm lucky to be able to make a living doing music and nothing but music.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

When you play that patch, does your hair suddenly grow long and curly?

I play only an alto, and I had a guy suggest I use tenor reeds, and the sound improved dramatically when I put a bigger piece of sugar cane on the mouthpiece. The bigger vibration surface made the tone much more muscular.

Hair? What's that? Oh, it's what grows all over my body except for the top of my head

The physical modeling Yamaha VL70m with Matt "Patchman" Traum's soprano patch sounds almost like Kenny G. (It sounds like a recording of Kenny G). The VL module is great at recreating a lot of saxophone nuances like tone/timbre changes in both volume and/or pitch (vibrato) changes, and it can replicate a lot of other nuances as well. It's the only sound module I've ever used to emulate a saxophone and be happy with the result.

But the chances of getting long curly hair are extremely slim unless I buy a Dolly Parton wig.

Notes ♫

Is that the "producers told me to dumb it down" patch?

Kenny Gorelick can really play, seriously. I suspect somebody told him not to, so he would be more popular.