Couldn't agree more with that Bob, nurture over nature any time. When we're young we absorb so much from those around us without really trying as it were and it makes you think what would be possible if there wasn't such inequality in education and families ability to be supportive and enabling.

Which gets back to the original point made that somehow 'excellence' would somehow be diminished by greater equality brought about by redistribution of wealth. The theory being that the more you give people the less they want to achieve. I think it's far more complex than that. 'Excellence ' can come from almost anywhere at any time as raw talent often has a way of overcoming any adverse circumstances and there are many 'rags to riches' stories to prove that. What we should be thinking about is how to encourage not just excellence but a more dignified productive life for all where work is seen as a right, and promoted as rewarding in and of itself rather than tied to only to individual gain, the profit motive or otherwise seen as just a means to a wholly 'individual' end. It's this kind of instrumental rationality thats the problem where people know 'the price of everything but the value of nothing'.


Firstly inequality of wealth is so great now that any move towards some targeted redistribution would only benefit society as a whole. Giving people back greater local control over their own environments and communites, encouraging collaborative projects that involve everyone in the effort to rebuild the infrastructure of run down areas inspires a sense of pride and purpose in those that take part. As an example look at the efforts to rehabilitate drug criminals in Detroit by rebuilding the inner city areas left destitute by big corporations. It's a long term project and not enough of this happens when left to the 'free market'. That requires government programs based on higher taxes from those further up the social ladder. There is no other way to get it started. If you give money to private agencies to get things going they end up eating up the funds in profits and management fees.
Maybe then you will see the kind of self reliance and pride you hope for. Its not goiug to happen if you simply coerce people with therats of total annihilation financially; a 'stick' rather than ;'carrott' approach. That just breeds anxiety acts of desperation, crime, resentment towards authority and completely disregards human nature. It's the reason why USA society is unsafe and guns are 'needed'.


If that were the case then all those who inherit wealth from rich and privileged backgrounds would have equally no incentive to achieve and yet we know that people from such origins do achieve much more than they strictly 'need' to probably on account from being born in to families that not only have a greater aspirational ethic but also the ability to be truly encouraging rather than just demanding. We've all seen examples of well off families with overly high expectations of their children who go on to underachieve because of the harsh and judgemental attitude with which this ethic was imparted.


Which also takes me back to the point that Mac and Pat wanted me to expand on about how religion can often inadvertently be judgemental depending on the personal nature(s) of those who impart the message.
Coming from Scotland and dealing as a Psychologist with the fall out from the cultural warping caused by the residue of our Calvinst past I see many lives more blighted than they otherwise might be because the individual has thought that they are 'getting what they deserve' for being a 'bad' or 'undeserving' person. Rather than a spur to action these 'black and white' self-definitions perpetuate the problem of their lack of self worth. It works both ways. The individual tries to project that lack of worth on to the 'bad' environment/parent/society in an attempt to rid themselves of the feeling of worthlessness, to pass the buck as it were. They end up alternating between over-assertiveness and extreme crushing guilt and remorse that far outweighs any redemptive quality that may have otherwise possessed. In short the very picture of manic-depression. This is clearly the down side of such a pressured upbringing that emphasised the pitfalls as a way of getting pepole to achieve or conform.

Attending one of the many Pentesostal churches here I see the kind of appeals to guilt and the need for redemption couched in terms of Pauline theology. I see the 'prosperity gospel' being used to coerce people into believing that the corollary must be that our lack of prosperity must be down to our unfaithful unbelieving selves. I see pastor harping on about self-made wealthy Christian men being an example of spiritual superiority, partaking of God's 'richest blessings'. I see sermons that preach the idea that if you're not with God then you must be against Him. I see in short people being punched in the eye with one hand and offered a band aid with the other.

This of course stands in contrast to a more moderate form of Christianity which whilst i do not take literally in any sense, nevertheless have much sympathy with. It's good to see that many churches in the states have gone about their role as providers of welfare in a non-coercive way with due regard for separation of church and state. Many churches here are now adopting a similar role and as long as the focus is humanitarian rther than theological it can only be for the good.

Regards

Alan