PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic SAE - opinions please?

Hi Folks

This may come as a bit of a surprise, considering my level of involvement on this forum, but I have been out of work for far too long and my generous girlfriend/sponsor has offered me the opportunity for some new education to boost my morale, give me something to do and help me become more 'qualified'. At first, we were talking about adding qualifications to my existing skill set in the field of psychotherapy that would be recognised in Austria (my qualifications are professionally recognised in the UK but not here in Austria) but it proved (to me) to be far TOO expensive and to take far too long to end up with knowledge I already have. So, I suggested that I might look for something that might actually enhance my employability whilst, at the same time, adding to skills that I could use (emphasis on 'I').

I am living in Vienna.

I asked an experienced pro bass player friend of mine about Sound Engineering courses here and he suggested the SAE. Now, I have no intention of technologically designing new audio instruments or re-inventing the wheel and I am already 50, so I found an online course in Music Production (3 months duration online) at Audioaction here and I thought that a 1 year Diploma course at SAE in Digital Journalism here could be very useful. I have over 19 professional qualifications in a wide range of useful subjects (Sports, Education, Business, Computing Systems, the Arts, Psychotherapy, NLP, Hypnotherapy, etc but can't find work with any of them) and I really do NOT want to waste my time with education that proves worthless anymore in terms of finding employment. From now on, my education has to benefit ME first. That said, if I can use that education to find regular paid work, I would be DELIGHTED!!!

So, does anybody on the forum have any experience with either SAE or Audiocation? I would very much appreciate some input prior to giving them a commitment.

BTW, I know that the two most important tools in Audio Engineering are (1) your ears; and (2) knowing how to use your equipment (which, in terms of PG software, I do) BUT I NEED WORK!!!

Many thanks for any input you have to offer

Sam, I don't know these 2 institutions but if it is what we have here, some of ours don't provide the academics that an employer values . Ask them to provide a list of jobs that the students have gotten then call those firms and ask if the students were qualified and are still working and advancing with the firms. If they can't or won't then walk away.
Also go to different production studios and ask them where they hire from and what their min qualifications are.
Since I am not the world traveler that you are, I ask this in ignorance but is the culture in Vienna accepting of an English transplant in this field of work. Here sometimes it's the "Good Ole Boy" system that prevents some from entering a narrow economic field.
Plan B write a hit, sell it to a star and live well. BTW I'm still trying to figure plan "B" out
Wyndham

So am I (looking for Plan B), Wyndham! Hence, the search...

Really, I think my benefactrice thinks it would keep me motivated and keep my hopes alive

Good advice, though. I put it out on FaceBook and a couple of my muso friends here have already replied stating that there are no good audio engineers in Austria and that there are too many sound guys here in too few locations. Which is why I want to study something that would be useful to ME.

Over 50? I doubt very much that I will ever find useful employment again in any case with my health today and my past record of primarily self employment!

That is sound advice, Bob, and I would say the same to somebody else too. However, I did that earlier. I was accepted to 2 good English universities and a drama school to study performance arts but decided instead to go to another university specifically dedicated to courses that would lead to good jobs in the city - City University, London. There I studied and worked hard for a Bachelor of Science with Joint Honours in Business Computing Systems. It was effectively 2 degrees in 1: Business Management and Computer Science and normally takes 4 years but I managed to complete it in 3. I graduated in 1992 with an Upper Second (recognised in England as the 'professional' standard) but I was already over 30 and not one single employer would take me on because thay all stated that I was 'too old to be a graduate entry level' and because I did not have 6 years prior experience in a blue chip company so was 'not qualified for fast track'. I spent the next 4 years or so working full time at trying to find a job using my qualifications, with no success at all. So, I went back to university and took a full time one year course in education that would normally lead to a job as a teacher in further and higher education. I did find some work after that but only occasional and part time - I lectured at 6 universities (3 in London and later 3 in Austria) over the last 12 years or so, as a visiting lecturer, on a number of business areas including marketing, finance, human resource management and business computing but I could never find anything permanent or full time because I was not an academic as such and did not have a PhD. I also studied for a Master's degree in Arts Management and graduated in 2002 but that has never produced any work whatsoever. Furthermore, I already have professionally recognised qualifications in: Hypnotherapy, NLP, Psychotherapy and English language teaching among others. Sad to say, these have never produced enough work either.

So, as you can see, I already have more than enough business qualifications but the jobs just aren't there. That is why I am now looking at finally studying something that would be useful to me first but could also possibly lead to employment somehow and I figure that, as there are no really good sound engineers in Austria (they really do NOT know how to mix, either live or in the studio), that I could finally be in demand and they would be skills that would help me personally too. Therefore, the two courses I am considering are: 'Music Producer' online at Audiocation and 'Digital Journalism' at SAE

I hope that clarifies it a bit

I know several people who graduated SAE. It is known to be a good educational institution.

Apart from that:

1: What would you like to do with your knowledge after you graduate. Live sound engineer or studio sound engineer?

2: Are there jobs on the market in the field you would like to work in?

3: If you want to be a live SE: Do you realize that means hauling heavy equipment around and working mostly (really) late at night?

4: Don't expect big paychecks as an SE (like Bob already said); there are some who get paid nicely, but those are the ones who made a name for themselves.

These are important things to consider before you start your education. Perhaps you could use your previous education and the knowledge and experience you already have and build from that to find a new career.

Whatever you decide, I wish you success. Keep us posted.

Mike

BTW: what happened to the home brewery business?

Sam looks to me like you've got enough education but aren't learning anything. It'll just be one more feather in your cap that you do nothing with.
The next sentence I'm just joking around with you. From what I've read from you in the years I've been here you do pretty well as a Jigalo.

Thanks very much for the input Mike and John.

@Mike:
(1) I would enjoy both studio and live. I enjoy anything to do with music but, with my health (a hernia plus a back problem and a gut problem, both of which have been operated on already plus high blood pressure and a thyroid problem), studio would probably be more suitable and possibly more useful
(2) Are there really any real jobs anywhere these days? Hence, I want to study something I can use for myself and which could lead to possible employment. At 50, I really have virtually given up the thought of finding permanent full-time work and I am not sure my health would take it anyway.
(3) Time of day is not a problem but maybe the lifting would be
(4) Long term the pay is not too important. I am lucky enough to have 2 independently wealthy parents from whom I potentially stand to inherit enough to see out my days and I have no pension rights to date anyway. I am even considering working the cruise liners eventually as a nightclub singer or taxi dancer. The most important thing is to be doing something that contributes to this world rather than just rotting away in my flat (for which my 80 year old father is currently paying)

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These are important things to consider before you start your education. Perhaps you could use your previous education and the knowledge and experience you already have and build from that to find a new career.

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That is what I thought too and have racked my brains for months plus networked to hell and back trying to find something but no joy, sadly.

As to the home brewery business, it is still there in the background but at the moment it is taking longer to build than originally projected and at the moment I am not even officially involved. It may take off in due course... or not

@John: I do indeed have more than enough education but some training in something I would enjoy could well prove useful in the long run. I can't see that either of the two courses I have outlined above would go amiss and I would enjoy doing them and they could prove useful to me as a recording artist in my own right and possibly as a freelance journalist on the music scene in Vienna (or elsewhere). As to being a gigolo, it has its complications and can be rather tricky at times - you try running 3 girlfriends at the same time

BTW, the SAE in Vienna are actually starting this course in 'Digital Journalism' for the first time this autumn which might be an indicator that there is actually a market demand that at the moment is not currently being met. I would be one of the first on the market with a diploma in it. Just a thought

Mentioning my health, I have recently finished reading 'The King and Dr Nick', all about Elvis Presley's health problems and the story behind his death. Seems I have more in common with him than vocal talent and a love of music. Great book and I highly recommend it

Hi Sam,
I'm a firm believer in "it's never too late to start over".
God knows I've done so many times myself.
I would encourage anyone who wants to try something new to go for it.
However, some of the things offered in schools only make the schools rich.
Every student sitting beside you is your competition. If the niche is already crowded, the sheer number of competitors makes your chance of employment go down. Employment is the goal, am I correct?

If you want to work...find a need and fill it.
It's a simple philosophy. If the need already exists...the job is already open!

Mick

Sam,

You have a PM.

From what I have read the SAE seems to be a respectable outfit with a good reputation, so you could do a lot worse. If the studio market in Austria is just starting then you would be in the right place, (and hopefully) at the right time. When the pop/rock music college started in Mannheim Germany, those in at the beginning made the grade, the ones who came late didn't. That means that the course will be just another diploma on your wall if you don't network and build contacts from the word go. In another post regarding some pc problems you mentioned that you couldn't understand the German settings on the pc. If this means that you can't compete in German, then you have a problem. A German course would be vital to enhance your chances of success. Best of luck.

Thanks very much for the feedback, Chris.

I do understand German. I just hate reading and writing it (which, strangely enough, Austrians and Germans do too - the spoken language is totally different to the written one)

And I network HEAVILY...

Sam,
Can I take a bus to Austria ? I want to try it.
I'm in the same boat as you are. Lots of credentials and no job 'cause I don't really like any of the things I'm qualified for. Now at 58.......
Try to find something you know you'd like, are in the age category that you'd be likely to be hired and move to a place were you can do it.

SAE is well recognized.

Unfortunately, the kind of jobs that graduates have to accept are usually internships, with no pay and long and crazy hours. SAE prepares students to work in professional studios; but the problem is those are becoming less and less common.

With your long list of educational credentials, are you stating that none of these seem enjoyable? What makes you think that obtaining a degree from SAE would guarantee happiness in a job?

I actually know someone who attended one of the SAE schools in Germany. For awhile, he had a job at BMW in their noise & vibration reduction department (I actually know his father very well - haven't had an update in awhile).

Since you came looking for advice on the internet, Sam, here's hoping you'll take this as advice.

Pick one of your 10 or so backgrounds - make use of it NOW. Find the good in whatever job you can find using one of those credentials, and capitalize on it and expand that good. Reduce and eliminate the negatives in that job to the best of your abilities. Save your current girlfriend some money while you are at it.

Then take that nice dog for a walk each night after you get home from work, with the satisfaction of putting in a good day's work.

Well Sam, if you've got money in your family and you're not hurting for support then you could do it. When I got out of the Air Force in 1968, I paid $285 in initiation dues to the NABET film union in Hollywood in an attempt to get work on a film crew. That was a lot of money in 1968. The union did nothing to help members get work except give you their union membership card, after that you're on your own. I drove about 20 miles each way, paid for parking and walked miles around Hollywood to all the producers offices putting my name in. In 3 months I got maybe 7 days work. The deal is networking, networking and more "who you know". When you see the film credits rolling along at the end of a movie all the production people like "Best Boy", Key Grip", "Gaffer" etc are all department heads and they personally pick their crew for the shoot. Good luck getting to know them if you don't already have an in somehow. Still, if I had enough money in my family to support me for maybe a year or so, I may have been able to do it with enough perseverance but alas, I didn't I was completely on my own and had to give it up. Since you do, this could work for you just like the guy I met at the party. Get your degree and do the intern thing for free for a year or so, it might work out eventually. There's still the drug angle though. A lot of times the contacts are made because you become somebody's dealer. I hate to say it but I saw it and it's true at least in Hollywood. Maybe not in Europe but the music biz is the music biz the world over I think.

Bob

Hi Sam,
I`ve graduated SAE in 1992. After that I worked in the "Reigen" (Hadikgasse) as an live audio engineer and I mixed all the great Jazz players like Don Cherry, Mike Stern, Bob Berg, Archie Shepp, John Scofield, Billy Cobham, ...
SAE can give you a real good education if you work hard enough. It`s not like school, though, you have to be self-responsible.

But to be honest, I don`t think it would change much, Sam. Now, I really do not want to offend you, and I mean that! But I think you`re having a problem with your "Selbsteinschätzung" (self-evaluation?). I think reality passes your eyes. There must be something that keeps you off from doing anything with all you 19 degrees. Ask yoursef why that is and be honest to yourself. In many posts of yours you told us what a great musician and lyricist you are - then again you feel too ashamed to post any music or you haven`t finished any (Your webpages has been announcing songs now for how many years and there still aren`t any).

Well, as I said, I do NOT want to make you feel like a loser. You are not. But I think you must be more honest to yourself and estimate what you can do and what you cannot. Find out what your STRENGTHS are. And don`t listen to your friends. They all tell you what you want to hear.

I think you`re really good with that karaoke stuff. So why not make that a big business thing. And please don`t lament about Austria is not appreciating your skills. I am a pro muso here and earn enough money to live. And I do not have rich parents or a rich husband. And you are a cosmopolite anyway. You can travel wherever the best music scene is. If you want something put all your energy into that and just do it. Don`t search for excuses.

My friend, forgive my harsh words. I want you to be successful, I really which you all the best.
Good Luck,
Sandra

Thank god I invested, and turned one year of university into a permanent pension. The investments are almost 100 percent back. The land is all worth more. And retirement at 52 game me time to go back to photography, family, and consulting, taking only the jobs I want, unless I think it's going to ruin the relationship.

I admit to melting down on one business owner yesterday, who'd building I manage, he sent a guy to pull wires for a new security system on Easter Sunday. Well I'm cooking for the clan, 18 people for supper, and he want's me to drive downtown? At first I blamed it on the both of them being Orthodox, but I found out it's their easter this year too, which is 'abnomal'. So, due to the fact I get free Hotel rooms from this chain, I let the guy in.....

Lots of guys I meet are in their 50's and driving school busses. They meet for coffee at the same time. Of course being part Scottish I would NEVER buy coffee out except 2 or 3 times a year, it costs like 3 cents to make, not 3 dollars like at Starbucks. The bucks part means. Should have been Starpounds for penny wise and pound foolish, though being a colonist still have no idea if yer southern fried types use the penny wise pound foolish thing, I know it's going to die out, my 2nd son asked me how that made any sense...

I'd say market the Karoke thing, lots of very cheap cool new digital lights, DMX software for a laptop has dropped to very affordable, and make a setup no can ignore. Offer multiple levels of it, lighting, lasers, haze machine, make the person feel like a rock star. They you end up in your comfort zone, and look for gigs a big fairs etc. We have 4 festivals a year that pack over 1500 people into the karaoke tents for the 'so you think you can sing' judging. That's a good one, cause you find a panel of prominent people who want to do that for 'political' exposure and they pay you to be there and keep saying there name..."Und Herr Koo, vants to thank everyone for using his laundry..vat did you think...???" LOL

Sam,
Listen to the lady.

I've just called Sandra and we have had a chat on the phone, John

Just to clarify, it is NOT that I don't like using the skills and knowledge I have but that I cannot find the opportunities. Things have been very tough for me since my major gut operation in 2006 and, what with my health and other problems (financial, emotional and psychological) life has been getting harder and harder for me. I do enjoy teaching, lecturing, DJing, giving hypnotherapy and NLP training, if only I could find the work!

Hence, considering investing in some retraining that would be interesting and useful