PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic) Is i9 intel worth it..given the cost.

Subject…Is i9 worth it ?

Looking for interesting comments as to whether a much cheaper i5 11400 (as recommended by pg simon awhile back at the budget level..and i agree)...is sufficient given the following parameters.
….a max 50 track project…useing fast ssd’s. One for win, one for traks, one for sample libs.
….a songwriters typical project daw doing one song at a time.
….past hits were done in the past with a lot less. (i had once a core 2 duo pc desktop could do a ton of traks).

Heres what i’m trying to figure out given the above.
…how much time will be saved mixing down a 50 trak song by using the i9 over i5 ?
…how much time will be saved genning a bb real trak by using the i9 over i5 ?
…re the 2 items above are we talking bout a saving of a second or two ? or major time saveings ?
…in some daw testing benchmarks reapers reacomp is used. Now I KNOW this is difficult to quantify but for fun how many instances of reacomp (or name your fav vst or vsti) EXTRA would an i9 run over the i5 11400 ?
…how much faster will a i9 system boot from cold ? or an app display.
my current old i5 boots from cold into win desktop in only a few secs…but its optimized.

Lets forget the tech for a moment…what i’m trying to do is look at the big picture due to the expense of an i9. Given the big picture what does i9 save the small project Studio ?
Is it big savings or small ?? from an operational sense…
Given many people have told me over the years in big studios (EXCEPT big orchestra dates)..
That one is “putting lipstick on a pig” if one cant do a great song within 50 traks or even way less. I suspect the pg coders who did realband and powertraks thought 48 traks was way enough given big world hits were done in the past on way way less traks.

In conclusion i’m trying to figure out the REAL LIFE savings the i9 offers given its cost over i5.

Would appreciate any thoughts//comments except i’m a stoopid A…lol.
Perhaps from people who upgraded from i5 to i9. I’m being asked lots if i9 is worth it....and i just dont know the answer. the problem is what is hot this year might not be next year. also in the back of mind is apples superb M silicon. and i'm sure the M1 will be followed by M2 to Mn
etc etc.

Its sorta like the old chestnut comparing two cars that get one from A to B….both get you there..but the hi speed engine in one thats 3 times the price gets you there faster.

Best
om

I'm debating this myself, since it's time to build a more current machine that will run Windows 11.

I currently use two machines for digital audio. Six years ago, I built both to be exactly the same except the backup machine uses an i5 and the production machine uses an i7. Thus I can speak to the difference in processors since both were equally high up their respective line in processing power and other specs. For BIAB, I see little difference except in the time required to regenerate a song. Even that is not an objectionable difference in the i5.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/intel-core-i7-vs-core-i9-whats-the-difference

I suspect, when my time comes for a new machine, it will be had to justify the extra $$ for the i9.

AFAICS the main thrust of i7 and i9 are high frame rates for gamers, even when the CPU does not itself include a graphics processor. My own view is that if one is not doing high frame rates in HD or UHD graphics, the i7 and i9 are probably not the best value.

These days my own calculation is often what best can I get for the lower power consumption ... 35W or 65W TDP. The other thing I do is put a value on the extra performance and decide if it's good value for money. 200% more beer tokens for 25% more performance is not a great return.

FWIW, I usually compare CPUs ++ here ++

How on Earth does one best compare chipsets and motherboards

Matt/Dan/Gordon.
Yep ive checked the normal sources like pc mags and cpu benchmark etc...everywhere.
But all these sources dont offer real life daw/recording studio performance stats for daws.
Like max trak/plug in counts // how many high demanding sample libs can each processor handle assuming same ram like 64 g, and ssd’s coming out the ying yangs.
Even gearspace or recording org and google i spent ages searching for real life Recording stats…but came up with scant info.

Only idea i could come is to find a mainboard that supports all latest gen processors, and thusly
I could start with the i5 11400 , and if its not good enough try the next level up i7 etc.

Ssd’s are cheap, so is ram, and other components but its the darn processors that bust ones wallet. If anyone has any opinion on best mainboard at the budget level that supports i5 thru i9..
I would love to know. I dont just want to shell out for an i9 and find its not saving in real life daily studio use over the i5. I suspect where the rubber hits the road is high end processors might handle more orchestral sample lib vsti’s running on various traks concurrently.

I used to be big on acer desktops cos i never had one prob with them, and i can get an acer 11400 I5 for under 800 buks. And i never had bloat with acer. But its been awhile so maybe thats changed. Of course any new pc will not see the net.


Another thing is i would like a mainboard that supports 3 fast nvme/m.2 ssd’s.
So can isolate win on one ssd. Second ssd for mtr recording/playbak, and third ssd for sample libs.
Otoh i might need yet another ssd if i found an orch lib i really liked, but it might be a resource hog. So i would put it on its own ssd separate from other ssd’s.

I keep on going back to the fact ive done a slew of songs in reaps/bb/rb with no probs (but not running high resource plug ins or orch libs.)..but its getting long in the tooth.

Another option is i get a refurb off lease beast xeon hp or dell or lenovo workstation, and wait for
Things to settle more. Cos they are around 600 buks or less. Ive even seen them for 300 buks.

https://ca.refurb.io/products/hp-worksta...5UaAjBhEALw_wcB



Thanks all for your input. ..oh how i long for ultra hi speed 2 zillion ghz processors…lol.

Happiness.
om

When it comes to PC's I've always used the 90/50 formula. Find one that gives you 90% of the performance of the top of the line for 50% of the cost. Right now that seems to be the new AMD Ryzens, if you read the reviews you'll find that AMD is kicking Intel's butt right now. Then I go on Craigslist and find someone who builds them.

That's what I did with my new Ryzen 5 5600 G, 16 gigs ram, 512 Gig SSD. A similar Intel system from Dell is about $1,200. I found a guy on Craigslist who sold it to me brand new with all the receipts, boxes and docs that the components came with dated 10 days before I bought it, with Win 11 Pro installed for $720. And in a very nice slim vertical case that fits right next to my new 65" big screen.

Compare my Ryzen system to an I5 system for specs and performance and you'll see that formula. It's true, the majority of reviews are all about gaming but I found a few that were focused on music production, the Ryzens are fine for that too.

Bob

Bob Jazz.
Thanks for the info, very appreciated.

Yes ive been watching the ryzens..your correct….
That ryzen 5600g has a cpu mark of 19000 plus thats higher than i5 11400.
Thats a very good pc deal .

Would you have any real life studio results using that ryzen ?
Eg….
.. estimate roughly of max trak //plug in counts ? can it handle 100 traks ? 100 plugins ?
I would never reach those stats..but nice to have power reserves.
I DO realise cpu power is just one factor.
..can it handle multiple high resource usage orchestra libs ?
This is where lots of small studios get into problems cos such libs can bring a system down ,........
particularly on one drive pc’s whereby that one drive pc is also multitracking and running win on the same one drive. So i advocate 3 ssd’s as i said up thread.

Also i dont like massive multi tbyte drives. I only do one song at a time..so 2 x 256 gb ssd’s is plenty for me.
and a big drive obviously for sample libs etc.
Cos once ive finished a song i archive it off the pc to multiple back ups.

..right now on my now 6 years old i5 , win boots in a few secs , as do apps like bb/rb/reaps etc.
And latency with audient interface is 4 ms reaps reports.
Does the 5600g boot fast ??// apps boot fast ?.

ANY real life stats on that ryzen system bob per above would be great input for me.
I’m keeping completely open minded.
I want a new pc cos i want to explore more the synergy of orchestra and rock…lol.
Obviously cos i cant afford to hire a big orchestra like big studios used to do in decades past…
cos there were big budgets in those eras.

Finally i’m trying to figure out how the ryzens stack up vs the lovely apple M silicon in studio daily use.

at this point i'm investigateing pc mainboards that support muiltiple nvme/m.2 ssd's


Happiness .
om

nvme/m.2 ssd's have nothing to do with the CPU (as I understand it) .. if the MB supports the drive it should work as expected. I am pretty sure I have these ports available on this machine, but haven't experimented due to lack of perceived need.

As another AMD Ryzen user (for years) I have never had a problem with them as far as track counts or plugins (not yet anyway), and we're not shy to try plugins whether we keep them for a particular project or not, which means lots of experimenting with different stuff. You've seen my estimated RB track count previously. Seems sufficient <grin>.

As a rule I'm OK with running the main app (Reaper/RB, etc.) on the same drive as OS, but libraries, the drive being used to record to (write to) etc., I usually try to keep separate.
I'd rather write to one drive and use another for reading. Less thrash.
In RB this is called the Temp Audio Directory, in Reaper it has a different name (I think it is in the target project folder from memory) but it exists.

Anyway I have been impressed with the Ryzen's, and would definitely recommend considering them.
I haven't had a Windows machine that booted from a true full reboot in seconds for a long time, if ever, but I can say, if I just let it go to sleep and then wake it up, I can log in faster than my monitor boots .. so kind of a moot point; I have to wait for the monitor anyway. I can type in the PIN while the mnitor is still turning on, and then wait for it to actually display. This is probably 10 seconds or so for this particular monitor.

The one caveat I would advise on, is that many of these Ryzen processors do not support acting as the graphics card, which forces you to have an individual one, which isn't a bad thing .. doesn't take much of a graphics card to run RB or Reaper .. I think I bought my last one for about $30 and it takes the graphics and RAM off the system load (or helps anyway).
Just some thoughts.

I 'feel' my home built Ryzen 5 machine compares favorably with my Dell HP Envy i7 for just about anything I throw at it. I haven't done any empirical testing, just my impression, since I have both.

Again, just my observation/experience/thoughts
YMMV

Oh, and if you are considering going Mac (Apple) you have left my realm .. . I don't have the patience to learn another OS and the omplications. I got music to make.

/to quote Jerry Reed; I got that music in me and it's got to come out, I gotta be just what I am .. I'll tell you folks about the way I feel, I'm too lazy to work and too scared to steal ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6XXzS1jti0&list=PL9FD60D319194C3A2&index=3

Rharv.
The nvme/m.2 ssd’s was just an aside…a new pc will only be as strong as its weakest link.
I just dont want to get a new pc , and then load up a heavy duty orchestra lib plug in in bb ot rb or reaps and find the new pc goes down the proverbial or fall flat on its A.
So i figure i’m gonna need 3 uber fast internal ssd’s…for win…recording/playback…and a big un’ ssd for sample lib. Tbytes etc.

A q’ for you. Your mainboard in your ryzen pc…can you swap out later the existing ryzen cpu
for a higher spec ryzen/threadripper ? is the mainboard that flexible re cpu future upgrade ?

Up to this point my existing i5 has been a stalwart and i know its limits…so any new pc has to blow it away.

The basic prob is some big orch libs plug ins can really chew up pc resources.

I nearly plopped for a retail ryzen pc awhile back…but i was kinda put off cos lots of retail
pc’s have bloatware/trialware on them as the manufacturers have thin profit margins.
Its darn difficult cos i have no clue as to how much an i9 would be better in practical terms.

Talk about a quandary as to best route to take…lol
and i'm not looking forward to loading my stuff up on any new pc.

best
om

I can answer one question right now, the others will take time. My 4 year old machine that has special software that allows me to securely log into the office is a Ryzen 3 and no that mobo will not upgrade to the 5 or above, too many new features to allow for that such as the 3 won't pass the MS Win 11 requirements. I don't need to remote login any more so that function doesn't matter, I thought upgrading that one would save me from buying a new machine for my private clients, but no. Tax season had just started so I needed to upgrade fast and I wanted win 11 which I'm having zero issues with. I like having the latest OS and security features available and Win 11 performs best with the latest hardware since the security features are integrated with the chips.

Bob

All.
This is kinda cute…sorta like the mighty chihuahua …lol
A ryzen small form factor pc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVosQJkm_fM

I wonder how well it would run bb/rb//reaps.

Heres a ryzen 9 beastie mini pc…lol
Cpu mark ..23162…muchn higher than i5 11400

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUkm9Pg3tqE


jazz/bob.
Would love to know more stats of your pc as you get them…thanks.
Like rt gen time…does it handle big orch libs…etc etc.

Best
om

I am just getting around to tinkering with larger libraries, as we do more multi-track recording than anything.
I can say it will record 8 tracks at once, while running 24 other tracks (with MANY plugins running, I'd guess ~30+, including Ozone) with very little effort and no hiccups.
We usually just record live tracks, but I am experimenting with Kontakt libraries now, and so far so good .. once you get the hang of how it works.

Still downloading gigs of libraries from the package I got, but like I said, so far so good.
I think I am about half way through 140 gig of downloads.
Taking my time and trying to keep things organized.

The drawback with mini PC's is they use mobile chips and they will throttle due to heat which was my problem with my old system. I lost the cooling in it and was using a little external USB powered fan blowing into the vents. That seemed to work for a while but then it had issues booting and other things. It's probably fixable but I just don't have the time to mess with it.

Bob

It's all relative really,
I recorded & mixed the included song on a refurbished (?)2001 era 286 PC with the max 16meg of RAM it could handle.
BIG boxes with not much in them allowed decent air flow too.
Eight drum tracks, six guitar tracks, three stereo synth tracks and two vocal tracks with a couple or three VSTs on each track as well as the stereo bus.
All real instruments and all tracked DI, (except for the drums - the multitracks of which were done in a home studio in Texas), with that machine, and a second hand INCA interface and Cakewalk Pro Audio 9.3 in about 2010.The video, whilst uploaded in 2018, was made using the same box and Windows Movie Maker a few weeks after the recording.

It'd have been done better to tape in a good room or through mic'd cabs in a good room with a better AD/DA converter obviously. The mic wasn't much chop on the vocals either but we arrived at a semi decent result given the technology and my limited abilities.
Sample libraries and BIAB demand much more in terms of storage, RAM and processing power to decompress etc.
Anything laptop related, (chips/cooling/space etc.), whilst convenient get the thumbs down from me for all the reasons others have stated.
Reaper isn't a hungry beast and would be the least of the potential problems.

I have always spec’d out my computer for longevity. To me i5 are decent when new and with basic software on them. After 3 years they start to get bloated and really slow down. I think this is by design. New this new that upgrade this upgrade that. I look at cost per year of use. If you go to a higher processor and a bump in ram will you get a couple more years of satisfactory use. I recently added a couple of midi keyboard devices and realized I had no more USB ports. Easy add a hub but some usb device do not like a hub. I had bought a full tower and was able to add a 4 port 3.0 expansion board for the price of a hub. So if you divide years of service by investment which was better. I5 or i7 Also factor in years of irritation watching the wheel spin when a process has taken over the system. Buying the fastest cpu and most ram rarely pays you back example being the i7-7700 and win11. Microsoft’s thank you to its loyal customers.

Very well said Scott. I agree completely.

good points scott.
jazz bob is right also bout mini pc's ...but they are so cute/unobtrusive...lol.

i'm in a quandary re how much cpu power i need to run BIG
orchestra libs ie vsti's.
how are other people doingb this...?
obviously big ssd's needed...another factor.


best
om

I'd forgotten this nasty trend. I was coerced into getting Windows10 on this machine, because I tried to re-install the Windows7 that was working just fine apart from an occasional 'nag' pop-up saying my "CPU was designed for a newer version of Windows", but, after a huge amount of trying, I eventually learned that Win7 will not install on my newer CPU. This newer CPU is not listed on the Win11 compatible list, so presumably that would happen again.

I didn't so much mind changing to Win10 (which has been fine), but I did actually need Win7 for software compatibility testing. Rather than trying to source an "old" used machine on which to install Win7, I tried running it in a VirtualBox on Linux and it installed and ran just fine, on exactly the same machine ... odd, huh? I have a friend who runs several OSs in VirtualBox on Windows, for similar reasons ... MS may want to kill old versions of the OS, but some of us out here still need to support our clients on 'legacy' versions.

BiaB seemed to run quite well inside VirtualBox on Linux, though inevitably it will lose some resource to the host OS. On Linux there are some complications involving some USB ports (MIDI In in this case) and I just swapped to the Win10, rather than mess around, but I believe they can be mapped OK; I just didn't have the patience.

That doesn't help with choices for performance, but it might help if someone needs a means to run a Windows version on 'unsuitable' hardware.

Rharv, good to hear your efforts in Kontakt are going well. Thought you guys would appreciate the trend in library sizes being discussed over in VI ...

All.
Heres what i’m really struggling with.
Assuming that i’m gonna load up on up to 10 traks various high cpu usage orchestra lib vsti’s.
And assuming i’m running 30 traks of normal multitrak audio old style…
I might be running reaps or rb for example.
What is the best processor that wont break the bank ?
can a latest gen i5 do it it ? a I7 ? a budget ryzen 3 or 5 ?
OR do i have to take out a mortgage …lol…on a i9 or thresadripper ?

How are you guys dealing with the high rersource useage of various orch lib vst’s ?

Now i’m doing more work in bb due to the extra utility traks can i happily load up various orch
Libs on various bb traks. Reason i ask is so far i typically would use low resource plug ins in
Bb …which is reason i like the computer music mag uk plug ins…both fx and instruments.

The issue in bb is what processor (without breaking the bank) would let me run flawlessly genned rt’s and various orch libs at one time ?

In conclusion chappys how many instances of heavy duty vst’s can your pc’s handle concurrently ? much as i like the m1 processors , it would mean a lot of work going over to the
Dark side…from win.
(btw my wife just got a refurb pc with win 11 on…a i5 8250 …for her work…she loves it.
But its not for audio. Just regular low usage stuff.)

Happiness

om

ps...dan those sizes are scary...lol