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ToneStone and Vinyl Dreams are two start-ups that offer audio production tools designed to be less intimidating than existing software to bring music creation to the masses. Is it possible one of them may become the next PG Music? +++ Article +++To me, +++ Bandlab +++ accomplishes the ease-of-use and understand goal set forth in the article. Especially when you consider the free soundpacks they offer.
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THey have a lot of catching up to do....
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I think Bandlab has some cool sample packs, and I may use them, but I would use them in a DAW like Cakewalk, their own free DAW, which is wicked cool and wicked smart. There is so much loop-based music out there for people who don't know music, that I can't tell what this adds. I am pretty sure I would never listen to anything created with it, and I am not a snob, I just don't like noise. So, I wonder why the Boston Globe never picked up on Band-in-a-Box as the salvation for all mankind. Do they not realize that with playable real tracks you can pick your own notes on a grid and not have to know a darned thing about sheet music??? It's more fun than Candy Crush. How did they miss it??? 
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eddie1261
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I see this kind of stuff as another shortcut to let wannabe types pretend to be musicians. When a product comes right and says something way too close to "Yes!! You too can become a hitmaker without having to let any of that pesky 'learning about music' getting in your way."
Even then if you look at their GUI it shows I-IV-V as an option. Does a green newb know what that means?
There are still times that I think BIAB and RB are cheating. Then I remember that musicians can be total asshats and say "Yeah I'm okay with cheating."
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/03/22 12:53 AM.
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Gave it a quick try. Cute "toy" but very limited. But I think democratizing complex tasks is a great use of technology. I don't know where I would be without Canva.... Does anybody remember life before Canva?
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BiaB has a couple of advantages.
1) Working with musicians for decades, getting feedback from those musicians, and using that feedback to improve the product
2) A user base who knows how to use the software. When something works well, as BiaB does, why start to climb the learning curve for something else?
The QWERTY keyboard is an example. It was invented to slow down typing so the typist wouldn't jam the typewriter keys. In the early days of computing, there was a software switch to change the arrangement to the much faster, much easier to use DVORAK keyboard layout. It was dropped due to lack of demand. People already knew how to use QWERTY.
So I don't think we have to worry about PG Music in the short term. It's a damn good product, and we know how to use it.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I see this kind of stuff as another shortcut to let wannabe types pretend to be musicians. When a product comes right and says something way too close to "Yes!! You too can become a hitmaker without having to let any of that pesky 'learning about music' getting in your way." Yeah, that's Bob's (90db) Starmaker Machine!
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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God forbid that someone need to put any actual effort into anything.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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God forbid that someone need to put any actual effort into anything. Agreed. I hear auto-tune kings and queens in the media, and I am immediately turned off. So is the media. Relief is just a 'click' away. If you can't sing on pitch, you are not a singer. Auto-tune may help you stay on pitch, but it also suppresses and even remove a lot of the nuances that a good singer will put into the music. For an example, I'll use a very old song, Otis Redding's "I've Been Loving You Too Long". It's close to the beginning, so you don't have to wait a long time for it. He sings, "You were tired, and you want to be free." The word "Tired" starts flat and as he holds it, the note ever so slowly approaches being in tune. The dissonance creates the tension and expresses the pain of his woman leaving him. Auto-tune would have wiped that out. Using auto-tune would be like putting strings on the guitar that are impossible to bend. I play sax, flute, wind synth, guitar, bass, drums, keys, and vocals. Voice was the hardest instrument of all to learn, it took time, it took practice and although barely adequate came quickly, it took a long time to become decent. On the other hand, some technology can be good. One good example is BiaB's harmonizing feature. When making a backing track for my duo, I can put the top note of a string, horn, or other instrument into the melody track, and have BiaB harmonize it. BiaB does that job using the rules I learned in theory class. Some tools are good, some are bad, and some are either good or bad depending on the situation and how extensively they are used. That's my story and I'm sticking to it  Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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eddie1261
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Not only does this dummy down the educational part of things, it helps put those neighborhood music stores we love out of business. Who needs to buy (and learn how to play) instruments if you can click a mouse and have a computer play them for you?
Yes. Band in a Box does this. BUT, most of us (if I may consider myself in this group) old skool users play instruments and use the tools to AUGMENT what we do, not BECOME it. Geeze I just dropped $500 on a Kurweil keyboard to have it here to use like a sketch artist would have tablets all over the house to rough sketch ideas. All of that is lost on "microwave music" software like this new product.
As big of a fan as I am of BIAB/RB for what it does for ME, it is far too often used as a shortcut to avoid waiting in the line that is music education. And that is sad on many level. The sheer joy of learning is lost on this generation.
I griped out loud here at home the whole time I was putting together that Life Is Hard video. Things like "Man this is really time consuming." and "The help module of this software is insanely weak!" and often turned to the web to see videos about how to do something. That was followed by a sense of accomplishment as I figured out what I was trying to do. 50 hours went into making that 14 minute video, but when it was done, the sense of accomplishment I felt was worth every second. I can now say I am somewhat proficient in Vegas Pro. I can do accurate cuts and fades. I can do side by side video. I know how to detach audio from video, insert stills into videos, stretch those stills for as long as I need them to run... It was truly a great learning experience and if we do it again next year (Herbstock!) I will shoot with more cameras, ask people to shoot video and send it to me so I can use the best stuff. I went from "WHY did I say I'd do the video??" to "NEXT year here's what I am going to do."
"Do it for me" software denies us that joy.
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/04/22 06:10 AM.
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Not only does this dummy down the educational part of things, it helps put those neighborhood music stores we love out of business. Who needs to guy buy (and learn how to play) instruments if you can click a mouse and have a computer play them for you?
Yes. Band in a Box does this. BUT, most of us (if I may consider myself in this group) old skool users play instruments and use the tools to AUGMENT what we do, not BECOME it. Geeze I just dropped $500 on a Kurweil keyboard to have it here to use like a sketch artist would have tablets all over the house to rough sketch ideas. All of that is lost on "microwave music" software like this new product.
As big of a fan as I am of BIAB/RB for what it does for ME, it is far too often used as a shortcut to avoid waiting in the line that is music education. And that is sad on many level. The sheer joy of learning is lost on this generation.
..................... I agree.
Back in my day the only time we started panic buying was when the bartender shouted "last call"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Eddie, I am generally averse to generalities because they almost never work out, but I think the one I am about to make will come sorta close to the truth. Maybe. I dunno. I seems that music programs (and many other thing) are being marketing towards two basic types of people: 1.) People who like to figure things out. 2.) People who like the program to do everything so no thought is required. It seems to me that BIAB falls into slot # 1. Sure, it makes things easier, but you still have to put some time in (just as you did on video editing) to figure things out. Work is involved. It forces you to study music to some degree whether you want to or not. And there are varying degree of input it needs from you. You can choose all real tracks, for example, or you can use a few real tracks and play the rest. But still, you have to study and learn and apply yourself to be able to use it well. There is a SECOND class of products where people just play beats and loops or whatever and start singing the same old riffs the moment something pops into their head: "Oh baby, yeah, you know it girl, I can feel it girl, all up in inside, yeah you know I will, girl keep it real, all I need to feel, give it time to heal, like a spinning wheel..." Hey that was awesome! Well maybe. I ain't gonna knock it. If that is what you want to do, it's a free country. It's just that this type of "music" makes me wants to scream out loud and I can't find the off button fast enough. To each his own I suppose. And again, the PG Music products open up wide vistas, but they still force you to think about what you are doing. The video you recorded for the reunion shows that in action, and proves it, even though we were doing an educational comedy skit.
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I never fail to get a huge laugh from this forum when old musicians start complaining about people using software that makes music creation easier!
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I don't think anyone is complaining John. I just hear people saying there are some programs that force you to learn SOMETHING and think SOMETHING whereas there are other programs that don't ask you to think at all.
That is what I heard, for the most part.
And I think it is true.
I remember you posting something in a thread a while back saying that you were trying to learn new skills and up your game. That is good. Good for you.
I think that is all people have ever been saying in these threads:
LEARN something.
And there ARE programs that let you get away with learning NOTHING.
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David, different strokes for different folks.
If someone wants to raise their own goats, slaughter them, and then use their skins to build custom drums because playing store-bought drums is "cheating" then so be it! Good for them!
At the other end of the spectrum is someone who wishes to make music but has zero interest in playing drums so they buy EZ Drummer 3. And they are able to lay down a killer drum track in minutes with little effort or learning. Again, good for them!
To me the result is what matters. Not the process. If I like the music it is good (for me). If I don't like the music I don't feel the need to disrespect its creator because they didn't use my preferred method of making music.
And my overall point was the massive and obvious hypocrisy here by users of BIAB who criticize users of autotune or other software!
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Yeah, I will agree, it is a fine line. I TRY to stay on the right side of it, but really, I have no idea where it is, so that is maybe a waste of time..
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This is thought provoking. There are AI apps for which you can enter a song, select a few parameters, click and voila you have a music video with clips timed to the song. Is this creative (whatever the operational definition of that is)? Does it make one a videographer? Are we far from doing the same with an AI audio app? ... like, create me a song about X at the tempo of Y and in the style of Z with a female voice and male harmony. Does the result make one a musician? Does an app that in one click turns an average or less photo into a decent looking water color appearance make one an artist? Are all the ridiculously color oversaturated photos or the "no wrinkles and snow white teeth photos" on social media "artistic?" And even though I'm one of the oldest guys on the forum do the above thoughts make me a curmudgeon? Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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J&B, I was going to show you an AI site I ran across about six months ago that will write both your lyrics and your music for you with one click. It generated stuff that sounds JUST like a lot of new stuff on Spotify. But when I went BACK A FEW MINUTES ago, Norton blocked it with a bunch of red screaming banners saying: "THIS IS A KNOWN DANGEROUS WEBSITE!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE BEEN BLOCKED!!!!!! I think it was a message from God man. On the age thing, I regularly play and work and collab with folks from the age of 18 to 75, or more, and no one really seems to care about anything but this: Are you any good? So I would just say keep on going man. That's what I will do until I am dead. I really don't stop to think about it for two seconds. Just having too much fun. I have been having non-stop fun my whole life and see no reason to stop. And no. You are not a curmudgeon. Unless I am.
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Yeah, I will agree, it is a fine line. I TRY to stay on the right side of it, but really, I have no idea where it is, so that is maybe a waste of time.. Yeah, I could kinda understand the elitism if this was a website forum dedicated to advanced musicianship and some rookie came in bragging about a musical piece they "created" using some software program, like, oh you know, BIAB! But, on the actual BIAB forum, to get all uppity because someone uses autotune or doesn't actually play their instruments strikes me as especially tone deaf (no pun intended!) But some in this group have surprised me in the past with similar blind spots. One guy was going on about how open mics steal work from actual working musicians while he used BIAB to, wait for it, eliminate actual working musicians from his act!
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John, I have to agree with you on a fundamental level, because of the very nature of logic itself. I have said many times that if you have ever used ONE real track in a song, you no longer have the right to criticize anyone for using too many real tracks, because, well, you aren't God. You don't get to draw that line. Which means by extension, you also can't then complain about people letting BIAB do all the work--by logic, you can't. You have surrendered the right to say anything if you have ever used ONE real track in ONE song. It's like this: If you steal a bottle of beer from a convenience store, you can't criticize a guy who robbed a bank. Stealing is stealing. If that is kinda what you're getting at, I say you just made checkmate.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Holiday Weekend Hours
As we hop into the Easter weekend, here are our holiday hours:
April 3 (Good Friday): 8:00 AM – 4:00 PM PDT
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Wishing you an egg-cellent weekend!
— Team PG
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Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
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