If I want to make a 120bpm 12/8 track play in Biab I have to set the base tempo to 80 and the main tempo to 80. You should be able to have the chord entry per beat rather than having to enter a comma for two chords two beats so if you up the time signature per bar you can just select the beat and enter the chord. I'm getting a headache thinking about it, I'm forever finding workarounds over the years, sounds like more worms, again just mod the BBPlugin I think. It's like that as it was made for backing/learning and never thought it would be used to create songs/add tracks to a DAW.
Are there more users now that want it for tracks in a DAW or more that want a backing band ????
You need to think musically, not based on DAW math. 12/8 time signatures have tempos around 40-90, and are counted as 4/4, not in “12” The tempo of the 12/8 song you posted is 80, not 120 as you’ve set it up in reaper. === If you were thinking musically, that slow blues shuffle you posted would have just been done in 4/4 at tempo of 80, and would never have needed an artificial transformation to a tempo of 120. You would have just stayed in 4/4, and maybe added a few tracks of your own playing, and ended up with a great sounding blues song.
Just tap your foot … that’s the tempo. These compound time signatures like 12/8, 6/8, 9/8 are for the NOTATION display only, and they’re not how you play them musically.
Thanks Peter for the video links that explains the subject very well. So I see how that is done musically. I also appreciate the fact we can do this with the microchords. This was a great new feature.
I guess my question would be, would a video to show how this can be transferred to a typical DAW be possible. Maybe this could benefit a lot of the users here that are commenting on this.
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> I guess my question would be, would a video to show how this can be transferred to a typical DAW be possible. Maybe this could benefit a lot of the users here that are commenting on this.
We could make a video. It would be something like this.
- time signatures 1. Simple 4/4 3/4 2/4
2. - compound time signatures (groups of triplets, for notation only, still played and counted in /4) 12/8 (variation of 4/4) 9.8 (variation of 3/4) 6/8 (variation of 2/4)
3. - irregular time signatures 5/4 , 11/8, 9/8 but counted as 4+4+1
The most important point to me is realizing that “compound” time signatures are just for notation. And that means you can stick with 4/4, 3/4 and 2/4 unless you have a genuine “irregular” time signature like 5/4, or the rare case of something like 9/8 that isn’t counted with triplets and is treated like 4+4+1
In the world of pop music, irregular time signatures aren’t that common. BiaB handles any x/4 time signature (eg 5.4 as 3/4+2/4) , and also handles the compound time signatures (12/8, 9/8, 6/8) for notation, and micro-chord entry on each beat.
There’s another time signature used for notation only - 2/2 aka “cut time”. That’s where you notate a bar of sixteenth notes as two bars of 8th notes, to make it more readable. That’s another variation of 4/4, used to notate music with lots of 16th notes (as played) , like bluegrass or samba, so that they get notated as 8th notes.
In terms of using them in a DAW, only the simple (4/4, 3/4) and the irregular types (5/4, 7/4) should be used imo. Things run off the rails if the compound time signatures (12/8) are treated as if they have 12 beats per bar (instead of 4 in 4/4).
..................... Just tap your foot … that’s the tempo. These compound time signatures like 12/8, 6/8, 9/8 are for the NOTATION display only, and they’re not how you play them musically.
Thanx Peter for this explanation. But I still would like real time signatures that I can work with in my DAW
Yes a video would be very helpful.
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia. She said she can't remember what she ever saw in me!
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Thanks also Peter for the length of detail that you have provided. It is appreciated.
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I'd appreciate seeing a video that explains time signatures and why notation differs from counting or foot tapping. Understanding that a notation time signature is used to make the sheet music easier to read makes a lot of sense. That's kind of a light bulb moment for me!
I can explain where the DAWS frequently go “off-the-rails” with the compound (aka triplet) time signatures like 6/8, 9/8, 12/8. And the DAW mis-treatment of 12/8 as having two 8th notes = 1 beat (instead of 3), which leads people down a rabbit hole, wondering what the tempo is supposed to be, and what the heck is going on.
Imagine a 4/4 song, tempo of 60. Let’s say it’s a slow triplet feel blues. Now it has triplets throughout it, and someone prefers to call it 12/8. That is completely normal, and they could call it 12/8. Now musically, we still call the 12/8 file as having tempo of 60. This is indicated as putting [dotted quarter note = 60] indicating that THREE 8th notes = 1 beat. - the problem is that some DAWS look at 12/8, and think that TWO 8th notes = 1 beat. So they think the tempo of the file is 90, which would be needed to play the 12 notes (6 beats) in one bar. This would put the beats at non-musical points in the bar [beat 1, triplet 1] [ beat 1, triplet 3] [beat 2, triplet 2] etc. - do now in the DAW we’ve lost the idea that this was ever a tempo = 60 song.
So the DAW is thinking that there are two 8th notes per beat, whereas COMPOUND time signature by definition have THREE 8th notes per beat. (12/8, 9/8, 6/8). If the DAW had a setting to declare that this is 12/8, but THREE 8th notes per beat, all would be well, and they would set the tempo to 60, which is the correct tempo, not 90.
Of course all this goes away if you just leave the time signature at 4/4 at tempo of 60, which BiaB does. And BiaB gives you the option to view as 12/8 notation, while preserving the 4/4 playback. As a bonus, you get to mix n match with the 90% of RealTracks and realdrums that are 4/4 based.
Time signatures are flexible and a lot of what we play doesn't neatly fall into any particular meter.
I remember when I was in the school stage band (back then the word "jazz" wasn't used in school) we played a lot of charts from the big bands, Woody Herman, Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, etc.
They were almost always written in cut time, but played at slow to moderate tempos would have made more sense at 4/4.
Plus, most were written with eighth notes when they were swing tunes, and they were played more like triplets. But a quarter note and eighth note with the triplet designation on top of every pair would have made a messy chart. If you understood the eighth notes should be done as a swing pair, it was much easier to read.
Some charts used dotted eighths/sixteenths to designate the swing feel, but that was just as off.
12/8 would have worked better, but 12/8 is harder to read for the less experienced players that also found their way into the big bands of old.
That's why our brains have to be flexible.
It's also why I think of the numbered matrix in BiaB as cells instead of bars. It allows me to make music with BiaB that would be difficult or impossible to do with one cell limited to one bar.
For example: When I was doing Jethro Tull's "Living In The Past", which is in 5/4 I could make one cell have 3 beats and the next 2 beats. That made two cells equal one 5/4 bar of music.
Plus to get the smoother feel Tull uses on that song, I made the tempo of each 3 beat cell a little faster than the 2 beat cells. It's how the band got the smoother feel out of 5/4.
That trick is similar to how most conductors interpret the 5/4 waltz movement in Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony.
But then, I don't use BiaB for notation. I find the notation editor a great help, but I use BiaB for auto-accompaniment. In the rare instances when I need notation, I'll use an old copy of Encore that I bought years ago. For a head chart, that's all I need. YMMV
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