That's what everyone says: it has nothing to do with this big hotel in California whose name I forgot, hahaha
It's an eternal problem here and will never be solved, everyone has their own milkshake recipe. But I admit that sometimes I like the results of my research.
Here we have "mechanical" recipes (Tempo, Time signature, even, genre) and we would like to make it stick to a groove, which is anything but mechanical, just find a similarity.
That's what everyone says: it has nothing to do with this big hotel in California whose name I forgot, hahaha
It's an eternal problem here and will never be solved, everyone has their own milkshake recipe. But I admit that sometimes I like the results of my research.
Here we have "mechanical" recipes (Tempo, Time signature, even, genre) and we would like to make it stick to a groove, which is anything but mechanical, just find a similarity.
Hmmm, interesting thought. Not sure if it "will never be solved". If it is driven by micro-timing, then it can be solved. Computers are very good at timing.
In 1931, Duke Ellington and Irving Mills even dedicated a song to the phenomenon of swing which they called "It Don't Mean a Thing, If It Ain't Got That Swing". Yet, to this day, the question of what exactly makes a jazz performance swing has not really been clarified. A team recently carried out an empirical study into the role played by microtiming in this process - a topic that has hitherto been controversial among music experts and musicologists. Experts refer to tiny deviations from a precise rhythm as "microtiming deviations". The project team has now clarified the controversy about the role of microtiming deviations for the swing feel by digital jazz piano recordings with manipulated microtiming that were rated by 160 professional and amateur musicians with respect to the swing feel.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Regardless of your response Charlie, you selectively only chose to publish one sentence from my two sentence comment. The other sentence was equally important to maintain the context of my statement. You should have included it if you intended to objectively maintain context.
I was objective and discussed both methods that I use.
Yes, of course there will be times when suitable styles can be found. You cited one event yourself.
Sigh...
Duly noted. Two methods
No slight intended leaving one out. I only used the one method that matched the point I was making about 'poor results'.
I'm more than willing to accept I may not be using the stylepicker to the best of its abilities, which is why I ended my post with "Unless I'm missing something?".
However, even if this were the case, it still doesn't excuse the fact that the styepicker is non-intuitive and badly designed.
I always find what I'm looking for, if it's available, but it's always much harder and time consuming than it needs to be. Basic filtering that does what it "says," would solve a lot of that. It's really a no-brainer. I can't think of any other software (other than Google search ) that will let you filter results and then fill the result with a majority of non-related stuff.
For example, if I click a genre in the filter ... the reason I clicked it is because that's all I want to see. Instead I get a whole load of non-related noise along with it. This makes drilling down hard work and it makes the filter function almost worthless.
Around 2014-15 when there were likely 1200-1600 less styles and a thousand less RealTracks, this was a common complaint on the forum. Back then, as it is still today, the forum blamed the StylePicker and the generic and bland RealTracks. Late one Sunday night the discussion turned to BIAB's StylePicker couldn't even produce a particular classic rock guitar song. Dr. Gannon was monitoring the forum that night and joined the conversation and quickly located a style, a guitar soloist RealTrack and completed a chord sheet that rendered a song he posted for the forum discussion. No cutting/pasting. Just a straight forward, stock RealStyle with a Solo guitar...
As I recall, at that time, no forum member had been able to successfully find a style that fit this particular song. Sound familiar?
RayC: "... the audition have little to nothing to do with "my" perception of the style. ... There are styles galore & for many of my preferred things but the actual tracks within them, and sounds from them, really don't bear even a passing resemblance."
JohnJohnJohn: "Every time I try it I typically get a huge list of styles that sound nothing like the song/band in question."
Lee N: "Not once has it ever found a style that is even close to being remotely similar."
AudioTrack: "Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark."
Furry: "totally agree with this post. I wasted hundreds of hours over the years and seldom got rewarded. "
MarioD: "Same here!"
Shlind: "And here! I have wasted so much time over this."
This isn't about anyone's opinion. My point is today, as opposed to back then, there's thousands more Styles and RealTracks. The StylePicker has been given a major overhaul and upgrade. Therefore, why can't the StylePicker and RealTracks find a stock Style that is remotely similar, in the ballpark song without wasting hundreds of hours?
My take away from Dr. Gannon's post long ago was because one can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done. Meaning forum users weren't accessing and using all of the tools, features and processes BIAB provided to get the results they were seeking. Dr. Gannon posted an example he presented as an acceptable resemblance to the style and song in question.
I happened to save Dr. Gannon's audio file from that discussion. Dr. Gannon produced his example in minutes using a stock style with a Soloist RealTrack and using the StylePicker filters and the 'Play over current chord chart' feature.
He didn't use the ACW, MIDI, an Artist Performance Track or a User Track. He didn't edit tracks.
How do you folks think Dr. Gannon's example song compares to sounding similar to the song in question? Is it in the ballpark?
If you achieved his same result from a StylePicker search today, would it be a waste of time?
I don't get your point. PGM owner and designer of the software was able to find a style for one specific song using his own software so that somehow proves something? All it proves is the guy who designed the software was able to locate one style that matched his one search. While average users have a far less successful experience using this feature. Make all the excuses you want...the feature is not very effective.
It is good to know that PG experts can use the BIAB tools to create a song with a very good match to the feel of an original song within a few minutes. Then we know that it is possible within the tools of the software, but it DOES NOT help me at all.
It would be of much more help to me if there were some videos available that demonstrates the process in detail.
I am not talking about basic videos that shows how to create some basic backing tracks in BIAB i.e. put in the chords, tempo, key, and time signature and select a suitable style by the style picker, maybe change some instrument - there are plenty of those around - and I think most users are familiar with that.
What I looking for is some videos that demonstrates in detail step by step how to find the right “Feel” of the song that matches the original song as best possible. I also know this is not very creative to try and do a best match to an original song, but I think it is an efficient way to learn and see how far and how a close match one can get within the tools of BIAB, i.e. what to expect from the software. And also to demonstrate how to use the selection and search tools to get precision without being swamped with irrelevant garbage, and especially how to do this in a few minutes.
BIAB 2025, Studio One 7 Pro, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
It would be of much more help to me if there were some videos available that demonstrates the process in detail.
You could try Henry Clarke's channel on YouTube. I did a search on his page simply for "cover" and had this result: Henry Clarke - "Cover"
I like Henry's videos, they're typically more explanatory that PGM's own videos.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I think playing in bands for many years has been helpful to me in locating styles that get close to cover tunes of pop, country, etc. Working solo, now, and playing basically “older” tunes, it’s rather easy to locate styles that fit the bill. I don’t write or play original material. Many styles will work with multiple songs----so, spread the tunes/styles out, to reduce the amount of style repetition in a given gig. Just for variety’s sake and to be different (at times), I’ll change a bossa to swing, or vice versa. The only area that’s presented some problems (in the past) has been the need for half-time styles, especially in country styles. That area has gotten much better.
Yes, the half-time/double-time was much improved last year, upon user requests in the Wishlist. It applies to samba just as well as country music, and possibly other genres of which I'm not aware.
I have purchased all the styles BIAB makes, and I preview them when I buy them, but I rarely use styles for a song. Styles are just collections of RealTracks and MIDI tracks that PG Music has evaluated and packaged, but if you want to, you can make your own by choosing individual RealTracks (or MIDI). You can then save that style as a user style.
Even so, I always support improvements to make the Style Picker as effective as possible. +1
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Nowadays with all the AI support software popping up everywere, maybe PG Music could link into some simple "AI Package" that can analyze the “Feel” of songs and match it into the “best Feel” of available BIAB styles. I don’t know how many parameters that would be required to catch the basic “Feel” probably only a relatively small number compared to matching whole song like Shazam.
BIAB 2025, Studio One 7 Pro, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
Nowadays with all the AI support software popping up everywere, maybe PG Music could link into some simple "AI Package" that can analyze the “Feel” of song
+1 on this. If we could drag-in an MP3 file of a song whose style we want to replicate, and have BiaB choose a style and/or create a style that matches the MP3, that would be great
I'm thinking this would be a big challenge from a computer science/programming perspective and a challenge from a musicology perspective. But I think it is possible. One would have to numerically define what a "style" is, most likely in several dimensions, then determine the style when presented with a specific audio source and then hunt for a similar or exact style in the database. If the style of interest does not exist in the database (which will happen sooner or later) then BiaB would create it so the user can use it.
Edit: I performed a DuckDuckGo search and it yielded a paper that seems to address this very question.
The paper aims to discuss a method for autonomously analyzing a musical style. The algorithm used needs to be shown both positive and negative examples of the style one is trying to teach it. It learns to distinguish the desired musical style from melodies that belong to it and melodies that do not belong to it. The information obtained can later be used for recognizing and/or generating melodies that fit within the analyzed style, a capability that can be of much value in musical creativity.
Warning: This paper is not intended for non-technocrats but the PG Music Development Team may find this to be a useful launching pad if they aren't already aware of it.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I come late to this "party" because I wanted to understand how others felt on the topic. When the "new and improved" Stylepicker was introduced sometime back, I tried it, and like many posters here, found it less than ideal, and voiced my frustrations.
The (at that time) "new" Stylepicker was quickly defended by PGMusic, citing as I recall, examples of how it could be made to quickly find a style for a particular song.
As I, and many of you have found, it is still less than ideal.
Here's just a small example (and yes, I know it's just one song, but, at least for me, somewhat typical). In the StylePicker window, in the "Type in a familiar song title ..." box, enter Somewhere Over The Rainbow, and choose the "Izzy" version.
As you can see by the filter choices (top left), it picks styles with "Lite Pop", "4/4", "Ev16" and "85" attributes. My "... items in list" count shows 448. If I auditioned the top 5 or 10 or 20, I wouldn't be satisfied with any of them.
Anyone who has heard this particular version (Izzy's) will know the accompaniment is ukulele. While you're in the StylePicker window, hit "Clear" and "Refresh" then in the "Filter String" box, type uke. In my results, the 4th one down is _UKES140 and, if not a dead on match, at least very close and useable.
Well, you say, you can't expect any algorithm to do that. TRUE. But I don't think it unreasonable to expect that the person at PGM who decided on the "attributes" of this song, after (I hope) listening to it, wouldn't have figured out that there was a uke playing, and that one of the existing BIAB styles made with a uke, would fit it better than the "attributes" that were selected.
Perhaps it's not a "person" picking the attributes, but instead, some AI program. Dunno.
My suggestion is, going forward, any new songs added to the available list under "Type in a familiar song title..." be more closely scrutinized by someone, and better choices suggested. You could leave the ones that come up when you enter in the attributes, but down in the "Memo" box at the bottom, add "Also try ..." and a few more acceptable suggestions.
(Didn't mean this to be so long but ...)
In that same box, I would like to see "Users suggestions:" and, if I had sent the suggestion for this song to PGM, through whatever means, _UKES140 would be listed there, and other users would have a useful starting point.
In that same box, I would like to see "Users suggestions:" and, if I had sent the suggestion for this song to PGM, through whatever means, _UKES140 would be listed there, and other users would have a useful starting point.
That is an excellent suggestion! This is the problem I have found also. One song I looked for wasn't listed, and accordingly I suggested it be added via the 'Songs to add to Band-in-a-Box Titles database' section of the forums.
The song has a moderate tempo (140) and to be authentic it must be performed with a 2-beat bass accompaniment.
When the song was eventually added, a Gypsy style with a 4-beat bass line and a tempo of 210 was the best suggestion. Not even slightly close.
If I could have added a 'user suggested style' that got fed back to PG Music, they could then collate all of those user's suggestions and make that feature part of the 'Familiar Song Title' functions.
Yes, and excellent idea. +1
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
................... If I could have added a 'user suggested style' that got fed back to PG Music, they could then collate all of those user's suggestions and make that feature part of the 'Familiar Song Title' functions.
Yes, and excellent idea. +1
I agree.
+1
I get most of my exercise these days from shaking my head in disbelief.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Can you imagine the wealth of style knowledge available from the Forum users? If every user contributed even a half dozen songs with their suggested style pick, it wouldn't take long to amass quite a collection.
One step further, if I used a unique combination of RTs etc. to create my own style for a particular song, I would just name my new style, indicate what RTs and/or MIDI tracks I used, and publish that info to PGM, similar the the way users now share that info on the User Showcase.
Here's an example: I have a style called _OLSCNTY. (OLS = my initials) My notes for it say, "mimics TANTUKER", (which is a PGM MIDI style) and then I've used my own combo of RTs, similar to the way Matt Finley described in his post here.
This is my RT selection for _OLSCNTY - 1547:Bass ... - 1549:Piano ... - RealDrums=NashvilleShuffle^01 (Oh how I wish PGM would NUMBER the RD tracks!) - 372:Guitar... - 1134:Pedal Steel ...
Now I open BIAB, click the "Songs Button", click at the top of the "Style" column to sort by that, scroll down to _OLSCNTY, and here's a sample of the songs for which I have used this style: - One Smokey Rose - Swinging Doors - Send Me The Pillow - Crazy Arms - Have I Told You Lately - Run Before You Crawl
So, if I were a Forum member, wanting to find a style for (say) "Crazy Arms" in BIAB, I would go to the Style Picker, type Crazy Arms into the "Type in a familiar song title ..." box, select the entry "Crazy Arms [Ray Price] ..." entry and click "Enter", the first selection that comes up (in my 271 items list) is _CRAIG which is a "Celtic Jolly Jig" (not exactly Ray Price material!)
BUT ... I could look at the "Memo" box, scroll to the bottom to find "User Style Suggestion: _OLSCNTY" and have a more viable starting point.
Perhaps a new Forum here could be the initial repository, say "Users Style Suggestions" or some such. LLOYD S
Can you imagine the wealth of style knowledge available from the Forum users? If every user contributed even a half dozen songs with their suggested style pick, it wouldn't take long to amass quite a collection.
Based on this thread there appears to be 2 different approaches to solve this problem.
Approach 1: The user community would be able to upload their custom made styles that mimics songs (like Crazy Arms) to a "holding pen" along with the message/tag that this custom style mimics Crazy Arms. Then someone at PG Music would confirm that the custom style does in fact match the style of Crazy Arms. Then this new custom style would be associated with Crazy Arms in the next version of BiaB or in the next version of a Styles Pak. This way, if you have the updated version(s) all you would have to do is type in "Crazy Arms" into the search box of the style picker and Lloyd's _OLSCNTY style would be on the list of matching styles for you to choose.
Approach 2: Update the BiaB software with AI capability so that you simply drag-in an MP3 file (a live version of Crazy Arms for example) and the software will analyze it and hunt down a pre-existing style that matches this song. If it can't find a matching style in it's database or you don't like the styles it gives you then you could tell it to create one for you.
Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages. Is there a 3rd approach?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
But in the meanwhile anything would be an improvement since the current song title search is more or less completely useless. The suggested “user input solution” could not be very difficult or require much effort to implement, but a problem here would be that it will probably take very long time before any usable “user data” is available so in reality it may not be of very much help in the short term and it would probably be big chunks of holes (songs without any user data) for a long time.
BIAB 2025, Studio One 7 Pro, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
It seems to me that the “song title search” function in BIAB only is setting and selecting four of the basic filter values i.e. Category, Time signature, Feel, and Tempo.
Probably only running the song through some type of player that analyses and find those characteristics, maybe the Feel and Category is put in manually. I don't think anyone is listening to the song and trying to rank the best match in the resulting list.
At least in my simple tests with a few songs I got exactly the same list as a result if I put in those four filter settings manually without song title search, as if I made the search by the song title search function.
And it results in the same sorting order and number of hits. So the sorting order i.e. what is on top of the list I don’t think have anything to do with “the best match” to the song at all. It is only the sorting order given by the software from those four filter parameters.
And I think that is what confuses many users at least myself since I would expect the best match to the feel of the song to be on top of the list. But the list seems to have nothing to do with the particular feel of the given song at all since I get the same result if I put in the same four parameters myself with out the song title search at all.
To me a very important component to the feel of a song is the Drum pattern as well as Bass, but as far as I can see there is no matching to best drum pattern at all.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday, and 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST Saturday. We are closed Sunday. You can also send us your questions via email.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
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