PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production What Stops Me From Posting Songs?

I can't believe this has never occurred to me before. I consider myself a decent lyricist, decent arranger, and fairly strong producer BUT I rarely post songs. I do write them and put them together but really don't post. I have 2 reasons.

1-I can't sing so usually have to find a singer
2-Even at that I can't mix to save my life!

I can hear that things aren't right. I know what parts should stand out where...I just don't know how to make them stand out. I completely understand that eq is needed to make that happen. It's not just a volume thing. I believe it's more my effects tend to muddy everything up.

So where I'm going with this is, that has been a major hurdle for me. My wife had breast cancer over the last 3 years, we have 6 kids, and I work a full time+ job. Thankfully I work for me, so I can work with my schedule a little bit. I just really don't feel I have the time to be trial and error everything to learn mixing.

At different points I thought about asking if anyone here REALLY enjoys mixing that would consider working on that; but just didn't feel right. Especially if I wouldn't like the result. I would feel AWFUL.

Then it hit me. I see people giving hints and suggestions all the time about "maybe cut the mids at..." or "you could tighten up that bass by...".

Is my solution to simple post my less than stellar mixes and get feedback on how to improve? Maybe leaning on the experience is a quicker and less painful way to learn this? Kind of like coaches!

So before I go that route, I just thought I would post this and get some feedback. I appreciate any replies.

(done with speech to text so may not be the best)

Sorry to hear that your wife has medical issues. Here's hoping for a full cure.

As for not posting, I recall a phrase I and others would use quite often in my engineering career.

Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough.

What this meant to us is that imperfect designers were designing to imperfect requirements using imperfect procedures and imperfect materials. And these products would be purchased and used by imperfect customers. This was not an excuse to do the absolute minimum but it did recognize that perfection is not achievable.

I'd guess that all of us would like to compose, perform and post the perfect song but for me anyway, I realize that will never happen; and I have peace with that fact.

Just do your best and ask for constructive comments. And if the comments that come in make sense to you, update your work accordingly and learn from the experience.

For me it's not only about "reaching a destination"; it's also about enjoying the journey of learning, creating and sharing.

As someone who has had throat cancer a couple of years back, I have posted some pretty god-awful vocals. I am not very good at mixing, but I do the best I can. Best wishes to your wife.

Based on what we post on this forum, we are not generally looking to get nominated for a Grammy..lol.

So...post and let the chips fall where they may. If you ask for help, there are people here willing to help.

I would gladly help you with your songs to the extent I can.

Send me a PM, and we can arrange to communicate by phone, Zoom, or email.

Billy

I enjoy mixing... You can drop me a line. As Billy will confirm, the problem is getting me to shut up.

If you don't like the result, that's fine. After all, it's your song.

I'd be happy to take you through my mixing process as well.

And I agree fully with Bass Thumper. Perfect is the enemy of good.

First sorry to hear about your wife. I pray for her full recovery.

Second, the above approach is what I took and in fact is still taking. This is a very friendly site so you will never get a "that sucks" reply. However if you ask for constructive criticism you will/may get many opinions. Been there - done that and gotten many suggestions that have helped me mix.

One last thing, your so called lousy mix or vocal may not be all that bad. Many times I will post some song that I think needs help only to find out people like it as it is. That is true for both here and on Soundcloud.

I wish your wife well and a full recovery.

Thanks for creating this post. I doubt if you are alone in thinking your mixes are not good. I know I share your concern.

"They" (whoever they are) say the best way to learn mixing is to practice, practice, practice. Then there is life and life has a way of reducing the time available to practice. My thoughts:

Band-in-a-Box styles provide a good starting point for mixes. The instruments usually blend well. The Xtra and XPro style packs have especially good mixes. Take what the program gives you and run with it!

+++ Mix Challenge +++ is a FREE website set up to practice mixing. You are mixing tracks and songs you didn't create so you're not locked into what's in your head. You post your mix and you'll receive constructive feedback from other mixers.

+++ EZ Mix2 +++ is a template based software program that helps you obtain a more professional sound.

Finally, if the music you create has similarities, create DAW templates with instruments, plugins and settings that sound good to you. That way you have a consistent starting point and a baseline you can return to while experimenting.

Forget that Peter McIan book. It's garbage. Besides being filled with cookie cutter recipes that may or may not work for your project, is full of all kinds of bad advice. For example, his go-to for every instrument is to boost 100 Hz. If you do that, your mix is going to end up being a muddy mess. I guarantee that's not what was done on the Men at Work album that he produced.

I burned my copy of it.

This is the book you want:

https://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-5th/dp/1946837121

Or this one, if not the whole series:

https://www.halleonard.com/product/333254/hal-leonard-recording-method-book-6-mixing-mastering-2nd-edition

As far as "I can't sing:"



A final piece of advice if you want to get good at anything, you need to give yourself permission to suck. No one starts out great at anything.

Well, the post I was referring to in my first paragraph about the books his vanished.

That should probably be written in neon lights somewhere.

Mornin' HTL....

1) I feel the same about myself....although, there may be no agreement by any listeners.

2) Singing the my biggest confidence hurdle too and I experience angst with each new song I finish as to whether it's worthy of my peers ears.

On mixing....
This is such a subjective process and one could say there's no right/wrong.
One could mix/remix a song forever but that doesn't mean any particular mix was better.....they're just different.
I don't agonize over getting the so-called perfect mix to accommodate every system anymore.
I think many put far to much emphasis on this aspect.

Countless systems along with every set of ears perceiving what they hear differently
I think it becomes unnecessarily retentive.
If a song sounds good on my system and Kens' (my guitarist/collaborator) system that's the determining criteria.
Unless, of course, there's a blatant oversight on our part then I'd acknowledge it and do my homework to fix it and thank them for catching it.

I probably didn't help much but I get what you're saying.
But....if I can assist at all in this context feel free to PM me.

But....that's just me.

Back to it....

(best wishes for your wife's recovery. My wife had breast cancer too years ago so I know what you and your wife are going through)

Thank you. She is actually doing very well now, thankfully.



That's some very good perspective. I have never heard of it put that way, so really great to think of.



That's pretty much the path I'm trying out. I haven't before and couldn't tell you why. Post. Get feedback. Adjust and learn. Post again.


I typically do that in most areas of my life. Mixing was something I just never enjoyed. I get it can be very creative but the majority of it to me was just very technical. I now realize, even with some pretty basic knowledge I would be much happier with the sound of my songs.

I appreciate the response very much!

Thank you Billy. I may have to lean on you at different points! (as in often)

I love you mixes and what your doing with Synth V. I very much think your songs using that are better than any of the others I've heard from both their site and people on youtube when I searched.

You definitly have the clarity and separation I am looking to get close to.



I totally agree with that, but what no one mentions is bad is also the enemy of good.

I don't need perfection. Just little better than where I am. I want to believe they are semi-easy fixes that would make a big difference for me. I am by no means a perfectionist...thnakfully.

I've got some general rules about mixing. And then I'll bring in my son, who's got actual training in audio engineering to have a final listen. I may not agree with his decisions, but it's really helpful to have another set of ears.

First and foremost, know what you want the listener to be focusing on at any point in the mix. Most of the time, it's vocals. Assume they can only really hear one thing at any point. Know what that is, and make sure the mix supports that.

If anything is interfering with that focus, figure out how to get it out of the way. The simplest thing to do is remove it from that part of the mix.

Each instrument should be in a specific frequency range. Use EQ to keep them in their lanes. As a rule, it's better to cut a frequency than to boost it.

Just about all instruments should have high pass filters to keep the "mud" in the low register from building up, and to keep the low end open for the bass and drum.

You can have some pretty severe EQ cuts on instruments, because other instruments in the mix are going to be playing in those missing frequencies. Pay attention to how something sounds in the mix, not soloed.

Sometimes I only want an instrument to be noticed at a specific point, like a drum fill. So I'll bump the drums only at that point.

You can also use something like Trackspacer to automatically carve out space in the spectrum. But this should be in addition to everything else. Use the high and low cut to have it only focus on the frequencies that need clarity, and don't turn it up so high that you get pumping (where you can hear the volume of the other instrument being turned down).

Reverb on a track can make a mix muddy. A good alternative to reverb is delay. Another option is to duck the reverb with the vocal (for example, with Trackspacer), so the reverb doesn't get in the way, but the lovely tails are there at the end of the vocal.

Although you can use the stereo image to create separation, but it's best if the mix works in mono too.

I will answer everyone who took the time to comment. I really feel like I'm on to something possible now because of the replies I got.

In the meantime, I thought it's probably best if I post a VERY imperfect version of the song I will give it it's own thread.

I'm truly excited. Thank you for that!

To add to what David said...

A high-pass filter is a combination device of capacitors, inductances, and resistors that allow signal components above a specific frequency to pass, while significantly suppressing signal components below that frequency. The high-pass filter only attenuates the frequency components below a given frequency and allows the frequency components above the cutoff frequency to pass. It is sometimes called a low-cut filter.

In less technical terms, a high-pass filter keeps the higher-pitch sounds and removes the lower-pitch sounds.

We do not generally associate the sound of an instrument with a specific frequency.

Knowing the frequency range of the instruments in your song helps you know the effect of removing specific frequencies.

We can start with the bass. Here is a general guideline to understand the effect of specific bass guitar frequencies. You can solo a bass track and experiment with cutting these specific frequencies to hear for yourself what the words used to describe the frequency ranges mean.

Just so you know, the frequency of the low E string on a bass guitar to around 40Hz, and up a couple of octaves is around 200Hz. How we get to 4 kHz is due to harmonics.

Boomy (40 Hz – 90 Hz)
Fat (75 Hz – 150 Hz)
Thin (40 Hz – 180 Hz)
Power (40 Hz – 150 Hz)
Impact (40 Hz – 150 Hz)
Clarity (190 Hz – 800 Hz)
Presence (800 Hz – 6.5 kHz)
Attack (120 Hz – 4.1 kHz)

In a live on-stage situation, the bass player would use the controls and specific effects boxes to help properly put the bass in the mix.
The person running sound would also communicate with the bass player in rehearsal to help the bass player set up things correctly, plus adjust things in real time on the board.

As you can see, a lot is going on with just this one instrument before the necessary mixing between the bass and the kick drum.

To add insult to injury, we have all these arcane terms like "duck the reverb."

David understands all these technical considerations, which is evident in the songs he posts on the user showcase. He is an excellent go-to guy for mixing help.

Don't be afraid to take his advice, reject it, or tell him what "you" want to hear. It is your song. Much of this mixing business is pretty subjective.

Billy

After reading this I did that very thing. Already getting some great advice! it's so cool to have access to the talent and skills we have here!

I guess I hadn't really considered that. Probably because I listen to the END result in the showcase. Very few times do we get a glimpse into any struggles, including the mental ones, that people have.



I've been just starting to delve in the style packs. I know in building models they have something called kit bashing. It's where they takes parts from a bunch of different kits to make something new and unique. That's what I like doing with BIAB. I love hearing one element here, and another there and putting it together in my head. Then grab the midi style, some real tracks, add in some 3rd party sounds and viola. cool. Now how to mix the damn thing! And it's end of the road Now I see a bike lane on the side of the road though!


I've heard of this but didn't know that's what that was. I like that idea. What a great way to learn!


I actually have the basic version of this. There are a fair number of add-ons. Pretty smart on their part. My very fist mix with it I was VERY impressed. I was just messing around to try it and got a really good mix. I felt pretty good about that. Shut it down. Have no idea what I did; but now that I'm trying they are NOT good. Crazy. Perhaps I just need to do the opposite of what I think I should do? Like George Costanza in Seinfeld. Not sure if you would get that reference?


Exactly what I'm hoping for. If I could get a rough starting point, and a few ideas of how I got there, I think it would go a long way for me. Like I said, I'm not looking for perfect by a long shot. Thanks for all of the input! VERY helpful!

Prayers for your Wife, your children, and you.


I noted your post about mixing the other day. I've recently gone through a similar...assessment. I want to release my songs on Spotify and Songtradr - do what others here, like Janice and Bud have done - so I dropped some bucks on a couple online mixing and mastering courses. I paid a mix engineer a small fee to critique my last mix/song, which I had posted in the Showcase, forum members had commented too. I made some adjustments and sent that mix to a couple of online mastering engineers. One of them wanted to re-mix the song and the other broke it out into stems, so essentially a re-mix also. Honestly, all of that was uncomfortable, not to mention somewhat costly. I did learn. Whether I'm better for it remains to be heard:)

Like you, I know what sound I'm after, I'm just not very skilled at finding it. And it takes me a long time to even get in the ballpark. I work full-time too, and so yeah, finding time and being in the groove is a challenge.

Forum members will help you, but you may want to consider hiring people too. I went to Sound Better to contact a mix engineer. He definitely made the tracks sound better, but the process was difficult for me. I want to do it myself. Stubborn I guess, and I like producing my songs.

Have you ever tried downloading free tracks to practice mixing on? I've done that a few times. You can post your mixes and get feedback. Here's a good site run by Mike Senior Cambridge Music .

Thanks for your post. You're not alone.

Scott

      ^THIS^

You learn to mix something by mixing something. It's that simple.

And by far the fastest way [1] to improve is to post your mixes on the Showcase forum (or other mixing forums) and ask for help/advice, because the responses are specific to your song, your genre, your problems, that helps more than general advice.

You may not agree with all the comments (after all, there's always personal taste involved), but even comments you disagree with make you think about what you're doing and why you're doing it this way or that, and that's an important learning process too.

[1] except having a decent mixer sit next to you