PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Your Most Useful Music Making Tools

Thanks Chicago, (btw one of my favorite bands, love the horns and bass player in that group)

Regarding compositional structure are you talking about how to arrange an intro, V1, V2, bridge, chorus, outro, etc?
Did you use an online resource like this?
https://www.musictheoryacademy.com/understanding-music/musical-structures/

ABSOLUTELY!!! (shouting on purpose).

<minor rant>

I understand that's what many a student wants, and it becomes profitable for the private lesson teacher, but it's just so wrong.

Basic music theory, scales and arpeggios, and all that beginner stuff makes one impatient to play the music he/she wants to play, but it's so important that it should not be skipped.

Remember as a tot how you learned your "ABC's", "What does a G sound like", "What is a verb", "What is a noun" and so on. If you skipped all that, which has become internalized in us, it would be very difficult to read and write.

Oh you could recognize "cat" without knowing what the letters are or how each letter is to be pronounced, but what happens when you see a word you have never seen before?

The basics are the foundation, and yes, it takes more time to get started if you skip them, but it handicaps you so severely that in the long run, if you learn the basics first, you will learn much faster in the end.

And yes, I know you can identify some greats who never learned how to read music, but believe me, they are the exceptions.

Like Eddie, I learned "Every Good Boy Does Fine" in elementary school. They also taught us how to count the note values in 4/4 time. They taught all of us, with no expectation that any of us in the class would become a musician. But back then, the schools gave us a well-rounded education, not just enough to be a productive wage slave to some corporation.

Later they taught us all music appreciation. We identified which instruments were playing which part, and we identified themes and development of those themes.

It wasn't for everybody, but if you teach enough different subjects, each student will find out what turns him/her on. They taught poetry, visual arts, sports, dance, acting, and a few other things that I didn't pursue but I'm glad I learned, along with the science, math, and grammar.

IMO every musician AND every singer should learn music theory. It's our language, and our foundation.

I once worked in a band with a singer who couldn't play a note on a physical instrument, but could talk our language, sing intervals, open a fake book and feed him the first note, and if the song was not too complicated, sight-sing the notes. It was a joy. He was 'one of us' and not only did we learn songs quickly, but he contributed to the arrangements, and everything else.

Don't sell yourself short, learn music theory and how to read music. You don't necessarily need to learn to sightread, although that will come in time, but learn to pick up an unknown piece of music and work through it until you can play it.

</minor rant>

IMO the greatest gift that music has given me is the fact that no matter how much I know, there is always something interesting to discover and learn waiting ahead for me.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

The last band I was in had a 3 piece horn section where 2 of them played so badly out of tune that they brought me in to double (cover up) the horn section parts. The trombone player, gainfully employed in another field, was the ultimate in the music hobbyist category. He knew enough to do charts, and he was able to copy the trombone parts as far as what notes to play, but basically he didn't know HOW to play them. He didn't practice much, and when he did, he didn't know HOW to practice a trombone. You need to play LONG tones to learn how to play in tune, not just play along with CDs.

So in one song there was some space to fill, and I suggested (just to put him on front street) that he get an 8 bar solo. He was SO POOR in any kind of improv that he COULD NOT WRITE AN 8 BAR SOLO! Any viable musician would have been mortified to play the solo he played at the first rehearsal. I ended up writing a solo for him, quite basic, and he couldn't play that.

And that's your copy band player who doesn't know anything about music right there. Completely unable to think on his own, and so poor at technique that the band had to hire me to cover him (and the similarly intonation challenged trumpet player) up. The last 3 gigs we played, his mic was in the monitors only so he thought he was playing but his horrible intonation didn't go through the front of house system. I left that band a couple of years ago, and they finally ended up firing that guy. They only played twice a year since then so I didn't lose anything.

Study.
Learn.
Practice correctly.
DON'T rely on music writing software like PG to replace the learning process. Us "old skool" guys have dedicated our entire life to this craft, and to speak only for myself, I find it offensive that people want to sneak into the circus under the tent rather than buy a ticket.

Remember, if I sing along with a Sinatra record, with Old Blue Eyes in my ears I sound great. Without said "Blue Eyes" singing with me I sound like a foghorn. Practice YOU, not you with a CD.

Years ago, when the Yamaha SY-77 came out, I was in college for the second time to get my computer science degree, so I was just into my 40s, and still playing. To fill my course load I took a bunch of music classes, one of which was composition. Some 19-ish year old brought in a piece of music that he claimed to have written. What he did was record the demo track from his keyboard. When he finished playing a tape of "his" song, and the class applauded, I could not stop myself from busting him. The prof asked "Does anyone in the class have any feedback they would like to offer?" I raised my hand and said "I have one comment to make." I got the go ahead and said "Has anybody here every heard of a keyboard called a SY-77? It's made by Yamaha, and what he just played, and said he wrote, is the demo song from that keyboard. I also own that keyboard and know that demo song well."

The prof called him into his office after class and threatened to throw him out of the class for pulling that stunt. That could have all been avoided if he just tried to write something on his own. JUST to make a point, I took my Ensoniq ESQ-1, a drum machine, and the SY-77 to the next class meeting (along with my sax) and performed 3 songs I actually wrote, not plagiarized. Then that kid was MAD AT ME because he stole music and presented it as his own, and cursed me out in the classroom. He dropped the class that day rather than be ejected.

It's things like that attempt to claim ownership of a factory demo that make me wish PG would take out that song creating demo song thingy out. This is supposed to be a tool for songwriting, not a tool to do the work so the user doesn't have to. We get enough of that from users asking us how to practice. (The answer to that is to just practice and not look for shortcuts.)

Do your own work, folks.

Eddie, you should elaborate on the practice thing. You must practice the right things in the right way. Practice things until you thoroughly get it them move on to something new.

I will respectfully disagree about the demo songs. I like to hear what the styles are capable of sounding like in good equipment and with good players. Maybe just make them so then can not be transferred to the chord track?

How many posts do we get saying things like "How do I recognize the keys that songs are in?" and "How can I get faster on the guitar?" That short answer is "Do the work."

You put in the work. You learn the neck. You play scales faster and faster and faster. Major, minor, pentatonic... I mean why do they think we can somehow virtually do your ear training for you? If you don't know notes on a keyboard, or a fretboard, how can we explain tone matching?



I'd settle for that solution. I literally despise it when people start posting awful stuff made from provided demo songs like maniacs in December trying to get their post count up so they can win a free copy of the new version coming out. They end up no better of a player and no smarter about music when they get awarded free software that does literally everything for them. That just propagates the "pretender" mentality. I also call it the "participation trophy" mentality.

Our age group is probably the last generation before the microwave mentality emerged. Everything is a rush to completion with no regard for self satisfaction that comes from doing it the hard (right?) way. This is a very nitpicky example, but I will say it anyway, despite the fact that reveals another aspect of my Sheldon Cooper side. Wife 3.0 once put something into the microwave and set the timer for 60 seconds. At 52 seconds she opened the door and took out the cup. And I asked her "Why didn't you just set the timer for 52 seconds? Were those 8 seconds you saved critical to your day? What are you going to do with those 8 seconds that will make your life better?" (This is the same kind of snarky line of questioning I use when people crow about their computer taking too long to do something. "Does loading a program in 4.5 seconds really enhance your life from the old days when that program took 6.9 seconds to load?" That comment typically comes from people who don't understand that programs run in RAM, and call their hard drives "memory". As we all know, hard drives are storage, not memory.)

There aren't short cuts to proficiency in any field. Witness the MCSE Boot Camp paper tiger MCSEs. They cost a fortune, they force feed you exactly what will be on the tests, you get your cert, you head out into your job and realize you don't know anything hands on, just the concepts that were enough to get your cert. That is the computer version of recording demo songs, slapping AI lyrics on them, and calling them your own work.

Do the work. Put the time in. There is far more to music than knowing where the start button is.

I agree.

I got a chuckle out of the complaining about the few second time differential. I remember waiting 30 minutes for a tape to load a program onto a computer and sometimes it would fail at the 29 minute mark thus I had to start over. Those were not the good ol' days!

We are definitely on the same page when it comes to practicing and learning theory. Keep fighting my friend.

*whine* But that takes effort! *whine*

Good advice.
Piano and music theory seem to be somewhat of a common theme.
The piano/keyboard gives you a linear and visual representation of available notes and music theory gives you a language to communicate with others and helps with understanding of how music actually works.

This post has evolved into 2 different things, and that's not a bad thing. There is a music LEARNING track and a music MAKING track. I have always been in the school that music is what you learn and songs are what you make with that. Music is knowledge. Songs are made using the knowledge that is music.

Kind of like when people say they are "on" a diet. Well, if you are ON a diet, you can then go OFF a diet. Diet is a daily behavior and a pattern of eating, not a thing that comes and goes.

Every music newbie needs to study these. They are good learning tools and great writing tools. I have been playing since 1956 and I still refer to these from time to time to consider options. Sometimes you may want to put in a strange non-standard chord just to grab the listener's ear. As we all know, nobody will EVER know everything.

Thanks BD,
A minimalist set of tools for sure but a good set as it gets down to the basics.
Muscians centuries ago probably had little else.

Eddie mentioned—Do the work. Thank you.

I've played with a lot of musicians who don't want to do the work, and they sound like it.

Being a musician is fun for many of us, but it certainly isn't easy.

I've dealt with

• Musicians who don't practice their scales/arpeggios/intonation/tone
• Musicians who don't care to learn to read music or learn at least basic music theory
• Musicians who use band rehearsal time to learn their parts, wasting everyone else's time
• Musicians who show up late or take long breaks
• Musicians who think it's OK to drink or do recreational drugs on the gig
• Musicians who spend more attention chasing members of the opposite sex than playing to the audience
• Musicians who think playing a popular song that would work for the audience is beneath them
• Musicians who have a Diva / Divo attitude
• Musicians who pick apart other musicians on stage for the slightest mistake
• Musicians who don't care about playing at the appropriate volume for the particular gig
• Musicians who are not having fun on the gig
• and so on

Mrs. Notes and I were in a few groups together. The last one was a 5-piece. We lost the bass player, and were out of work 2 months, finding a new one and teaching him all our songs.

Later that same year, we lost a drummer. Got a new one, this time we were only out of work one month.

She had a small kit, kept excellent time, provided tasty fills, didn't overplay, and could even play with brushes for the slow jazzy numbers. If that wasn't enough, she could sing backing vocals, too.

We go to our first gig, it was a Dodger Pines Country Club in Vero Beach, FL (The Brooklyn Dodgers used to do spring training there). The audience was huge, and filled over capacity.

The F&B manager pulled back the accordion type room divider and told us we could set up in the bar/lounge. The drummer got excited and said, “God will never forgive me if I play in a bar!” I said, “God will have to forgive me for homicide if you DON'T play in this bar tonight.”

Back to Music Making Tools...

The next day I bought a Teac A-3440 reel-to-reel, 4-channel tape deck. I play drums, bass, at the time rhythm guitar and some keyboards, so I started making my own backing tracks.

I mixed to cassette tapes and bought an AIWA double bay cassette player, with volume sliders for each bay. I had a local repairman calibrate the cassette speed to within 1%.

Then MIDI came around and I bought a sequencer and synth modules and saved the songs to floppy disks. That was much better than carrying scores of cassette tapes (one for each song).

After a synth module failed on stage, I decided to do all the mixing at home, save to 192mp3 and bring two computers to the gig, which is something I still do. I use ThinkPad computers, because they are almost bulletproof. I just retired one I bought in 2002.

Mrs. Notes plays synth and rhythm guitar, and is an excellent singer. On stage, I play sax, wind synth, flute, I learned to play lead guitar, and I'm a decent singer (Mrs. Notes sings all the difficult songs).

Since we went duo in 1985, we were never out of work until COVID reared its ugly head, and now that it's in the rearview mirror, we are back to doing 15-20 gigs per month.

We both have intense work ethics, play what we need to play, adapt to each audience, show up on time, put in 110% for the entertainment purchaser, and have fun doing music and nothing but music to make our living.

Notes ♫

It may not appear as such but we actually agree on getting "more of me" into our music. This is what I like about my instruments; it's my fingers on the keys of my keyboard and my fingers on the strings of my bass.

But I'm still not understanding how Scaler helps accomplish this. Aren't you still moving a mouse on a computer screen?

Don't get me wrong, I can afford the price of this software, it's about every hour spent climbing up the learning curve of yet another piece of software is an hour taken from music theory, honing my bass/keyboard skills and other "traditional" music growth activities.

And it not teaching you music. Just like you learn how to skate by skating, you learn music by playing instruments. Not by playing around with software.

OK, now you guys are teaming up against me forcing me to defend myself. <said with a big smile>

Here is my defense for incorporating all these "music tools / software" into my music in order for me to get more of me in my music. Keep in mind, my goal is to be a better overall "musician" not just a better guitar or piano player.

I continued to take music lessons (hands on the instrument) both theory and performance for both piano and guitar. However, even if I could muster the energy and focus to spend 6 - 10 hours each day on only one of those instruments, there simply are not enough days left in my life to reach a level of professional proficiency. That ship has sailed. I am long past the days of sitting in my bedroom with the guitar on my lap practicing until my fingers bleed. And that doesn't even include any time for playing out, gigging in a bar with other musicians - hell, I haven't even been in a bar for years. So Thumper the next time you spend an entire day running scales and licks to backing tracks, think about all the other aspects of music which you are not studying. What is your goal, in regards to playing the bass? What will you do with this skill that you pay so dearly for with your time and efforts?

And Eddy I already know you position on all this... you have shared it in detail in your postings. Remember, the comments in this post are being consumed by your fellow members of the PG Music Senior Citizen Society. Do you really think you have to school us on how to play music? You really should have stopped with "...Do the work" and then just let us decide what work needs to be done.

That's a great question.

Knowing the goal will help identify tools you can use to get there. Not knowing that, its just a bunch of stuff we use. Maybe useful to you, maybe not.

Hey Dan, I can only speak for myself when I say I'm not ganging up. I'm truly interested in how Scaler helps in making music. Is it via music theory? Helping with finding the right chords? Something else? This is why I asked about your workflow. So no judgement here at all, far from it.

I'm in the process of summarizing (as best I can) the survey results. And as it turns out, you are in good company. The biggest chimney on the chart is software/plugins.

On a more personal note. I'm not studying scales or arpeggios, but maybe I should. I play basically by ear with a knowledge of the chord progression and am the consumate novice. Hence my inquiry regarding tools.

You need no "defense" at all, I'm just curious and want to learn from you and others.

Recall that you have helped me in a major way in the past, so it is I that is the student

Nope. Just how to learn it.

When software does the work for you, you are learning how to use software, not learning music.

The same logic goes to "Self Help" books. If you are reading from a book, it's "Book Help".

Here are the results from this survey as best I could distill them.

Assuming I didn't make any glaring error, I wonder what the main take-aways are from this data.

These results do not surprise me. You asked this question to a group of digital sound and rhythm using musicians. Virtually all of us use BiaB, a digital sound and rhythm generator. Add some chords, pick a style, and presto you have backing tracks complete with rhythms and sounds.

Many of use substitute BiaB sounds with better sounds, thus the Kontakt, Toontrack, etc software.

Ask this question to a group of studio musicians and I'll bet you will get a completely different list.

100% - the number of times certain forum members write out their rules for playing et al is astounding. Note's notes are noted and not digested.