PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Your Most Useful Music Making Tools

You're both not quite correct. A major most certainly is in the key of D minor. It's the V (dominant) chord. Typically that would be a dominant 7th chord, but not always.

The seventh scale degree in a minor key is often raised, creating that leading tone to the tonic which also turns the chord built on the 5th scale degree into a major chord, giving us a stronger V-I cadence.

That's where the Harmonic Minor scale comes from.

The reason why the Major V chord in a minor key sounds right is because you're used to hearing it; 300 plus years' worth of it has been pounded into your ears.

That m/M7 chord ís an entirely different beast altogether. It is what you get if you build a 7th chord on the root of the Harmonic Minor scale.

Also whoever said that the Aeolian Mode is just the minor scale is not quite correct either. The natural minor scale and Aeolian Mode might have all the same notes, but the difference is one of context.

"Key" and "Mode" are not interchangeable.

Music based on functional harmony strongly relies on the V - I cadence and that is true of minor keys as well.

Modal chord progressions seem to be more linear and the chords are not functional like in tonal music. The typical Aeolian cadence is bVI - bVII - I.

That is what practice is for.

When learning a new, challenging song, I analyze it first. Then I try a few things out because I can often analyze it more than one way, or analyze it erroneously. Depends on the song.

I have practiced scales, arpeggios, and other basics until they are under my fingers. If I know the key center of the part of the song I'm in, what I hear in my mind is immediately transferred into my fingers. I don't know how that is done.

In fact, I don't even hear it in my mind first, I hear it as I'm playing it. Like I said, I don't know how that happens.

On the gig, 99% of the playing is done without thinking. No words are thought. It's just a flow. Analyzing is all done in practice sessions. On stage, the object is to get into “the zone” and have fun.

Even though I play pop music for a living, and most of it isn't very challenging theory wise, my theory knowledge makes me a better player than I would have been if I hadn't learned it.

IMO, every musician and even every singer should learn at least basic music theory.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Typical reference to a "minor" scale generally referes to the Natural Minor or Aeolian mode. In which case the V chord is minor not major. But you are of course correct in referencing the harmonic minor scale with a major V chord.

And if your point is to further emphasize the importance of applying music theory in our music making, then you are right on target.

Thanks for playing along.

Dan

I think you maybe misinterpreted the term minor major 7th. Apparently because you saw the word major.

Please read +++THIS+++ and sit at your piano while you do.

A D minor major 7th has to do with one weird chord, not the context of the scale where some of the chords along the path from octave to octave are major chords. A D minor 7 remains a minor 7 even when the 7 is sharped, making it a minor chard with a maj 7th voicing.

I'd refer you to Dr John Venesile, one of music professors, had he not died in 2016 from pancreatic cancer. LOL!

Also check +++THIS+++ Wiki page that defines Aeolian mode as the natural minor scale.

Harlem Nocturne.
Second Bar.
Classic MinorMaj7 example.
Nice Minor7 (b7) arpeggio to set it up in bar 1.
The maj7 pushes hard against it. Beautiful dissonance.

If you play guitar check out Danny Gatton's version.
https://youtu.be/p_2D7p2zYfQ

I think there can be some confusion for some people related to the difference between a dominant seventh and a major seventh. They are both seventh chords but sound very different and resolve differently.

If someone "said" to me, play a Dmin7, I would play the dominant seventh. The seventh note is C. DminM7 is a more or less discordant chord using Db, which is the major seventh. I indicate Db and not C# because the key of D minor is a flat key.

One of the issues with not knowing much about theory is that you may go to a totally unexpected place. Theoricatilly competent musicians have a very good idea of what is coming next and if you deviate very far that becomes confusing.

Of Course, there are no "wrong" notes or chords, but most of us need to be pre-informed to follow you into an unexpected place.

The technical reason for DminM7 sounding discordant is you have this minor second involved.

Billy

As usual, you make a good point.

Notes, as a gigging professional musician and per my awareness, you are in a sparsely populated clan in this forum.
Keep your locomotive running man and thanks for your incites

Sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand words.
I can relate to this guy's sense of being overwhelmed.
Nonetheless, this is a fun journey I'm on!

Let's hear your take on this Billy. I have always believed that you could take almost any group of 4 notes and by moving the voicing around you can probably justify it using theory to somehow make a valid chord. There may be a missing third you have to insert but you can probably wrangle most combinations of notes somehow into a chord. Some may not make sense in popular music with the "standard" chord changes we hear 99% of the time, but they are chords.

I always held aside a group I called "Brubeck chords." He used discordant harmony very well. I'm a big fan of 11th, personally. LOL

I will give it a shot, Eddie.

If you play the piano and not depressing two keys down with one finger, with both hands, you get a chord/sound, whatever you want to call it, with ten notes. Your digital piano will not tell the chord's name because it does not exist. On top of that, it does not sound very musical generally.

If you play Dm in the left hand and Bbmaj7 in the right hand, it is still Bbmaj7 which makes it a seven-note chord. Then play Eb7#11 ( the 11th just for you, Eddie...lol) in this voicing, again with seven notes, D, Eb, F,A, Bb, Db,A. Both of these are known chords and could occur in a jazz setting. Play the same thing but leave the F in, and you have a slightly strange Eb79 with eight notes.

So...when playing these highly extended chords, you can leave out notes or add certain notes that may make it an unrecognizable chord, but it may very well infer the extended chord. Classic music theory is not so much about hard and fast rules but definitions of what is being played.

The 13th chords are frequently played as chord fragments but infer the 13th chord. C major without the third is still a C chord, a so-called power chord, but it does not infer the major or minor.

Even with three-note chords, it is a bit hard not to form some sort of chord. For example, play C major in the root position and raise C to Db, and you get Dbminb5. Typically what takes you out from known chord names is highly discordant sounds constructed by using minor seconds.

Piano and guitar are the instruments likely to play some "unknown" chord. Piano players are much more frequently likely to have some training and will understand why what they are doing is logical.

Eddie, you have perhaps a greater liking for discordant sounds than I do based on the post you have made depicting artists using that motif.

Minor seconds are pretty distracting to me.

Billy

Hmmm, interesting and well thought-out advanced analysis Dan, thank you for this.

Am I correct in saying that Fragments of a Dream could be improved by Scaler by
1. "Constructing a melody to play over"?
2. Expanding the "limited vocabulary and chords of the song"?
3. Helping to add a "Dorian feel"?
4. Helping to "expand the progression beyound the i, iv and v chords to create a bridge"?
5. Allowing my creativity to flow into the song rather that it writing it for me?

If this song is say a 3 on a scale of 10 and Scaler could help elevate it to say a 5 or 6, and you don't need a PhD in music theory to use it; then Scaler has my attention.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Scaler or any other software tools (which by the way is currently on sale for $49). Scaler just happens to me a go-to tool for me. Others have pointed out alternate tools which I am sure provide similar assistance. And while, yes, the "thought-out advanced analysis" I provided is drawn from my use of Scaler, I am a student, so the true value of this analysis may be worth what you paid for it - nothing. But I do stand by the conclusion that the knowledge and information provided by Scaler could indeed help move Fragments of a Dream to the next level in regards to all 4 points you made,.

So - Scaler will NOT make your music sound any better. It is not a Effects VST that you plug into and then it all sounds better coming out. It is designed to provide knowledge and inspiration to help you make your music sound better primarily as a composition tool for writting music based on consideration and selection of chord sequences and their associated scales that you select. It does also provide a large selection of templates (ala BIAB) if that is what you need to start the process. And it will produce midi tracks to accompany the chord selections, including a large selection of VI sample sounds, but that is not my primary usage. But this does work well for writing a Melody. Scaler does exactly what is being done here by two talented musicians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA7gdz56LtY. But of course you now see were the need to "read music" gets involved.

This tool is like having a copy of Stefan Koska's classic text, "Tonal Harmony, an introduction ot twentieth-century music", on you desktop. But I open Scaler a lot more frequently than Koska.

I know you construct your chord charts and bassline by ear and you play the chords on keyboard, which is admirable. However, the chords charts <<and melody>> that Scaler may suggest may not be "playable" for you? This is not an issue in my case, since I readily acknowledge my keyboard skills can not handle complex chords but I use the scaler midi to drive any and all VIs. Kontakt knows all the chords and can "read" the music that Scalers writes. ! I mention this only for consideration.

If you are interested I can do a demo walkthrough of Scaler via zoom for you. We can start with your Fragments of a Dream chords. Or I may have connections to get you a timed-demo version to play with. Let me know if either sounds interesting?


Dan

To Dan's point about doing a demo of Scaler, let's do that as soon as possible. I am looking forward to a live master class put on by Dan the Man. I would like to see a question-and-answer session that someone would moderate. Steve if he will do it.

Steve has said he would host the Zoom meeting as he has a paid subscription.

Beyond that, David Cuny has agreed to do a mixing workshop with questions and answers using the same format.

So....WE HAVE EVERYTHING LINED UP; WE JUST NEED TO SET A DATE AN TIME.

bILLY

I'm in for the Scaler Zoom.

Me too, Eddie!

I am even jumping off the deep end and springing for the $49 bucks for the software.

How about 8:00 PM Eastern to 9:00 PM Monday night 6/26/2023? That would make it at 7:00 Central, 6:00 Mountain, and 5:00 West Coast??? This may be a little early for the Nanny state...lol

I will PM or email DAN and Steve also. We can record the session and post it.


DAN AND STEVE are you guys seeing this??? Call me.

Dan, this is all good stuff.
In these last few posts I've already learned from you more about what Scaler is than the videos I've watched on the subject.

I'm in if you want to host this.

Dan has agreed to be "Dan The Man" Scaler expert.

Dan will do a question and answer session on Zoom at 7:00 PM tomorrow evening, Monday, 6/26/2023.

The Zoon session was provided by Steve Slechta and he will monitor everything if he has time. If Not, I also have full control of the software.

Topic: Billy's Zoom Meeting
Time: Jun 26, 2023 07:00 PM Central Time (US and Canada)

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/88466824544?pwd=Mm5Da2dnTFNIRFhsUmN1am1IN0twUT09

Meeting ID: 884 6682 4544
Passcode: 752544

Billy

Ask yourself the question: "Does it sound right for the song?"

That!