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Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Uwe Schwarz #785710 12/01/23 08:50 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,588 Spain C Cerio Expert
Cerio Expert C Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,588 Spain	100% agree with Jon and Lee Latest BIAB version, latest build.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July MarioD #785715 12/01/23 09:25 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,664 United States Bass Thumper Veteran
Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,664 United States	Originally Posted by MarioD Unfortunately for me RTs are PGM cash cow. Out of curiosity when we say "RTs are PGM cash cow" does this mean the value in RTs is that they are a. the skilled recorded output of high quality studio musicians or b. that the software can take RTs (samples) and make them play at any tempo and over any arbitrary chord progression in a variety of styles? If both, which of the two produces the greater "cash"? I've always wondered about the specific element of BiaB that is unique or revolutionary. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Uwe Schwarz #785716 12/01/23 09:28 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,340 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,340 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	A is a given so I vote B. B is what makes BIAB unique. BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Bass Thumper #785743 12/01/23 11:35 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,034 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 24,034 Hamlin NY	Steve, what I meant was that the majority of BiaB users like and use RTs, thus PGM will keep producing them. I don't blame PGM for doing so. If I had to choose I would take your choice A. I don't believe that RTs can "play at any tempo". Slow them way down or up and you will get artifacts. It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July MarioD #785746 12/01/23 11:46 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,664 United States Bass Thumper Veteran
Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,664 United States	Originally Posted by MarioD If I had to choose I would take your choice A. I don't believe that RTs can "play at any tempo". Slow them way down or up and you will get artifacts. You're right, I should have said many tempos rather than any tempo. Last edited by Bass Thumper; 12/01/23 11:47 AM. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Bass Thumper #785772 12/01/23 01:01 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	Originally Posted by Bass Thumper Originally Posted by MarioD Unfortunately for me RTs are PGM cash cow. Out of curiosity when we say "RTs are PGM cash cow" does this mean the value in RTs is that they are a. the skilled recorded output of high quality studio musicians or b. that the software can take RTs (samples) and make them play at any tempo and over any arbitrary chord progression in a variety of styles? If both, which of the two produces the greater "cash"? I've always wondered about the specific element of BiaB that is unique or revolutionary. I love MIDI and own a ton of VSTis BUT, the single reason I have upgraded every year since I discovered BIAB in 2012 is...wait for it...REALTRACKS! The new features rarely interest me and often frustrate me by introducing new bugs I have to work around. But those RealTracks are pure magic! If they took a year and focused on improvements with no new RealTracks I would take a pass that year.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July JohnJohnJohn #785808 12/01/23 04:21 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,380 Southeast USA bloc-head Expert
bloc-head Expert Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,380 Southeast USA	A & B I still love this software, and the forum... Thanks again PGM Bandcamp Win-11; BiaB-2026 Audiophile Cakewalk Sonar; Melodyne-5; Scaler 3; NI Komplete: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July bloc-head #785881 12/02/23 01:11 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2015 Posts: 225 Jon Thomas Apprentice
Jon Thomas Apprentice Joined: Dec 2015 Posts: 225	Just a few more thoughts on the topic. My well-meaning "provocation" (take a year off, fix all the issues), which is unrealistic for obvious business reasons, seems to imply that one has to choose between either more features or less issues / bugs / interface complexity. Such either-or choice shouldn't be the case, obviously. In an ideal world, a great product should have the ability to offer both more features over time, and a issue-free / not overly complex user experience. Now, I think most users (including myself) are happy to be patient with this non-ideal dichotomy because we realize the incredible value that BIAB offers and the incredible complexity of the program, and we realize that the two things are somewhat correlated - if BIAB was simpler, it would be easier to make it bug-free and user-friendly, but it would not provide as much value (and viceversa). But, at the same time, the two things at some point can become anti-correlated: too much complexity may actually decrease the value of the user experience. It's a fine balance to find and maintain. So, my little provocation came from a place of true love, obviously. Just wanted to make sure that's clear. Now, how much of that complexity do we actually "need", and who actually "needs it", that's another problem, and it's highly subjective. As an example, I don't use BIAB for learning or for composing or for mixing (unless we're talking making rough demos, which is not really mixing). I only use it for arranging, and then I do my mixing elsewhere. But that's only me, I'm sure that many others have very different needs. So, I just wonder ... how long this ambition of being a do-it-all, satisfy-them-all software can be sustained in relation to the unavoidable developing complexity and user experience complexity? At what point that increased complexity becomes counterproductive? Where is that fine balance I was mentioning above? I don't know. Maybe more specialized versions of BIAB could be imagined? (like, a BIAB version focused on learning, a BIAB version focused on producing / arranging, a BIAB version focused on composing, etc)? I'm sure that at PG have a much better idea about the direction to take in the future. Again, all these reflections come from a place of joy and love. Thank you PG for doing what you're doing. Keep it up!!

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Matt Finley #785892 12/02/23 03:49 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Apr 2013 Posts: 8,751 South Carolina C Charlie Fogle Veteran
Charlie Fogle Veteran C Joined: Apr 2013 Posts: 8,751 South Carolina	Originally Posted by Matt Finley A is a given so I vote B. B is what makes BIAB unique. A is about quality and is easy replicable in a number of ways so there's nothing unique about studio recorded audio. Studio recorded audio's draw for users to BIAB is the vast quantity and variety of instruments and audio. B is singular to how the software manipulates midi and audio, and that in turn makes BIAB so loved and at the same time, so frustrating to many. The program's complexity and difficulty is what makes it unique. That complexity and difficulty is why there's such focus to getting tracks and projects out of BIAB and into a DAW where editing, comping and manipulating tracks is easier and more familiar to many users. It's why PG Music over the years has had to focus so much on DAW integration rather than internal upgrades. The complexity and difficulty is why there's such demand in the forum to make BIAB more like a DAW. Many comments in this thread focus on making the program easier (less difficult and frustrating) and having to export to a DAW (less complex). BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Jon Thomas #785894 12/02/23 04:00 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,785 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,785 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted by Jon Thomas I'm also a big, huge fan of BIAB. And yes, I also find bugs and problems, very often. But I still keep using and buying it because of all the amazing things that BIAB can do. Now, having said all that, I wish that PG Music would take a sort of "sabbatical" year, for example, version 2025 would be: - no new features (at all !!!) - just bug fixes, interface improvements, streamlined workflow etc - maybe (if possibile) new realtracks as usual, but that should NOT be the priority - obviously, cheaper upgrade to the new "streamlined" version One year to fix all the issues, streamline the interface, clean up everything. I would gladly pay for that. These are all important and valuable points to consider. The second point (above) is critically important to most users. BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Jon Thomas #785902 12/02/23 04:58 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,664 United States Bass Thumper Veteran
Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,664 United States	Originally Posted by Jon Thomas Just a few more thoughts on the topic. My well-meaning "provocation" (take a year off, fix all the issues), which is unrealistic for obvious business reasons, seems to imply that one has to choose between either more features or less issues / bugs / interface complexity. Such either-or choice shouldn't be the case, obviously. In an ideal world, a great product should have the ability to offer both more features over time, and a issue-free / not overly complex user experience. Now, I think most users (including myself) are happy to be patient with this non-ideal dichotomy because we realize the incredible value that BIAB offers and the incredible complexity of the program, and we realize that the two things are somewhat correlated - if BIAB was simpler, it would be easier to make it bug-free and user-friendly, but it would not provide as much value (and viceversa). But, at the same time, the two things at some point can become anti-correlated: too much complexity may actually decrease the value of the user experience. It's a fine balance to find and maintain. Very well articulated, it's a fine balance indeed. The only 2 cents I would add (which is somewhat implied) is the competitor factor. With the rise of AI there has to be people "nipping at the heels" of BiaB with the idea to enable chord-progression-based computer assisted composition to be more general and less dependent on a finite set of styles. The large set of styles available in BiaB is certainly a great feature, but also contributes to the complexity. Artists will always be tweeking existing styles and creating new ones. At some point, keeping up with every new style while retaining the old ones will not be possible, hence the need for a more general solution to the problem of providing the maximum number of styles to the user. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Bass Thumper #785976 12/02/23 09:14 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Apr 2013 Posts: 8,751 South Carolina C Charlie Fogle Veteran
Charlie Fogle Veteran C Joined: Apr 2013 Posts: 8,751 South Carolina	I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right? BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Charlie Fogle #786049 12/02/23 03:15 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 133 L Lee N Apprentice
Lee N Apprentice L Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 133	Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right? For me it's because of the chore of finding what I'm looking for. 10 styles or 10 realtracks would be easy, I'd listen to all 10 and make a choice. When it becomes 10,000 then things need to be made a lot easier. Search is irrelevant, it rarely brings up anything actually relevant because the categorisation is not only badly labelled, nothing can be properly filtered. Searching for a song title in the filter is nothing short of a joke. The problem isn't quite as bad if I just want to choose a style and be done. The problem is refining a style, changing realtrack instruments is unnecessarily time consuming and overly complex with far too many mouse clicks required, which needs to be done repeatedly. It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered. For refining realdrums things are even worse. I love the realtracks, the more the merrier, but without improved functionality they just add to the already cluttered mess and everything just takes longer and wears down my enthusiasm even more. Some of the VST instruments are becoming so good that if the BIAB interface doesn't improve then I'm finding less reason to bother firing it up. I only complain because I love the software, nothing else compares to what it does. With each upgrade I still live in hope of design improvements but it never happens, I've pretty much lost faith in it. I don't care about modern looks or dark themes, in fact I prefer the look of BIAB than all the modern trends that other software developers go for, but BIAB is just endless mouse clicks, menus and sub-menus that make no sense and everything just too unnecessarily difficult. I'm tech savvy, I use lots of software, some of it very frustrating but I alway get my head around things and put up with the bad designs and lack of common sense that seems so common in the developer world. BIAB is the only one that I often give up on and hit the exit button, it drives me to a point of insanity and too much frustration - but I really wish it didn't. If it was better designed I'd use it far more often.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Lee N #786071 12/02/23 04:54 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	Originally Posted by Lee N Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle I'm not understanding the correlation to how the number of styles increases the complexity of the program. The number of styles has no relation or dependency to the core program. Regardless of the year version or OS version, the only difference between the different purchase versions is content. The user that purchases a pro version of BIAB has all the functions and features of the user with the Ultra Plus version. There's no difference in the operation or increase in complexity between the two programs. More choice of styles doesn't contribute to making the program more complex. PG Music could add 10,000 new styles but the program will still be the same as would be if all programs shipped with only 10 styles. Styles would still be selected, loaded and play the same. I don't see there being a maximum number of styles to users other than physical storage space. Choice is an external process of the user not an internal issue for operation of the program, Right? For me it's because of the chore of finding what I'm looking for. 10 styles or 10 realtracks would be easy, I'd listen to all 10 and make a choice. When it becomes 10,000 then things need to be made a lot easier. Search is irrelevant, it rarely brings up anything actually relevant because the categorisation is not only badly labelled, nothing can be properly filtered. Searching for a song title in the filter is nothing short of a joke. The problem isn't quite as bad if I just want to choose a style and be done. The problem is refining a style, changing realtrack instruments is unnecessarily time consuming and overly complex with far too many mouse clicks required, which needs to be done repeatedly. It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered. For refining realdrums things are even worse. I love the realtracks, the more the merrier, but without improved functionality they just add to the already cluttered mess and everything just takes longer and wears down my enthusiasm even more. Some of the VST instruments are becoming so good that if the BIAB interface doesn't improve then I'm finding less reason to bother firing it up. I only complain because I love the software, nothing else compares to what it does. With each upgrade I still live in hope of design improvements but it never happens, I've pretty much lost faith in it. I don't care about modern looks or dark themes, in fact I prefer the look of BIAB than all the modern trends that other software developers go for, but BIAB is just endless mouse clicks, menus and sub-menus that make no sense and everything just too unnecessarily difficult. I'm tech savvy, I use lots of software, some of it very frustrating but I alway get my head around things and put up with the bad designs and lack of common sense that seems so common in the developer world. BIAB is the only one that I often give up on and hit the exit button, it drives me to a point of insanity and too much frustration - but I really wish it didn't. If it was better designed I'd use it far more often. Well said! Several of us have been saying this for a long time (and are often roundly criticized for daring to be critical of BIAB!) I hope PGM starts to realize there are a lot of their customers who feel this way. And you are def correct that the VSTis are becoming really good! I can already put together Bass, Drums and Keys with Toontrack products and the results sound as good as or better than what I can do with RealTracks! Plus the creative process is so much more fun than with BIAB. If Toontrack adds Guitar and maybe integrate these tools a bit better you have your BIAB-killer product.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July JohnJohnJohn #786084 12/02/23 06:09 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110 M musocity Veteran
musocity Veteran M Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110	" It just wears down my enthusiasm to a point I can't be bothered." creativity killer. I have shown so many ways to make things easier finding what you need. I said about RealDrums as they all have the RealDrumCharts you should have a beat finder like EZDrummer. A Bass finder like EZBass. Sound matching to find a style similar to an mp3 sample song. And so you don't end up with so many RealTracks that take ages to go through, you have 1 DI guitar like "Fender Strat Rhythm" that uses a default VST FX(or user settable) without an FX version also, this will just have many style patterns you can choose from to allow change at any bar or beat giving seamless change with no tonal difference you can also change to DI guitar like "Fender Strat Soloist" with no tonal change. Clean Electric Guitar (28) could be anything whereas the Brand and Model will tell you exactly.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July rayc #786152 12/02/23 10:32 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,315 B babymusic Veteran
babymusic Veteran B Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,315	Originally Posted by rayc Wow, the anger is wild. It's imperfect. Some folk as far too sanguine about "progress" and others want it all & want it last year....SwingBaby was, and sometimes still is, an example of the latter. . Why did you mention me? I just have some difficulty learning BIAB because I can't understand English. I have always believed that BIAB is very good. WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July babymusic #786166 12/03/23 12:45 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2015 Posts: 225 Jon Thomas Apprentice
Jon Thomas Apprentice Joined: Dec 2015 Posts: 225	I have to say, having a lot of styles and/or a lot of tracks (RealTracks or otherwise) is not exactly the worst kind of "complexity" to have. In fact, it's the best kind, meaning that it's good to have more options, in this case. However, it is a very good metaphor for the more general problem with the current state of BIAB. Let me explain. Just like Musocity said, having a lot of tracks / styles is really a problem only if the search / filtering system is not helpful enough. And that is exactly where we're at now. If the had an efficient, content-aware search / filtering system, you could have a gazillion styles and tracks and you still would be able to enjoy the full benefits of such variety. But we don't. So, a thing such as "more tracks" or "more styles", which is obviously a great thing to have (and the reason many people keep upgrading every year), becomes for some (maybe many) an increasing source of frustration, because it is so time-consuming and difficult to find what you really want or need. And this is for two reasons: 1) it is objectively difficult to navigate such a wide variety of options with the current search tools 2) it becomes subjectively (psychologically) difficult to accept a sub-optimal solution, because while you search "you know" that there must be a certain track or a certain style "somewhere" in that vast ocean of possibilities that is "perfect" for your need, and more options are added, the more that feeling increases, so every year it becomes harder to stop searching and tell yourself: "ok, this is maybe not optimal at 100%, but it is good enough" (the psychologist Barry Schwartz wrote some great stuff about this phenomenon). Again, the problem is the lack of a good, efficient, content-aware search system. Now, as I said, while I don't think that offering too many styles or tracks is the worst problem in BIAB (not even close ...), it is a good metaphor for the more general problem. What I mean is that, in its current state, BIAB provides a trillion fantastic features / options / functionalities, but not a good way to navigate such complex landscape of possibilities. This goes, really, to the very core of the problem, I think. BIAB offers too much in relation to the "navigation" tools provided. Simple as that. Add on top of that all the bugs (this morning I found a few more ... not a surprise), and you have the full picture. Having said all that, like all of you, I can't wait to see what new RealTracks and Styles we're gonna have this year. But, frankly, I also hope to get an improved search engine (and, even more frankly, I increasingly "expect" to have that, as a paying customer: BIAB is great, but it's not cheap, let's not forget that). That would be a welcome step in the right direction - but again, that is not my main worry with BIAB at the moment; there are more basic improvements that I believe would help much more than that, but that's just my opinion of course. Last edited by Jon Thomas; 12/03/23 12:55 AM.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Uwe Schwarz #786172 12/03/23 01:37 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,796 fiddler2007 Expert
fiddler2007 Expert Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,796	Been away a while, but it's IMO not so nice to await bugfixing until there is a new PAID AGAIN version, as usual with quite a few new bugs that won't be fixed LoL. As loyal customer for probably over 30 years i am considering not to fall for this scheme again. Last edited by fiddler2007; 12/03/23 01:38 AM.

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Jon Thomas #786173 12/03/23 02:01 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 128 Palermo, Sicily, Italy alfstone Apprentice
alfstone Apprentice Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 128 Palermo, Sicily, Italy	I agree 100% with Jon Thomas, but IMO the point is different. I mean, is there REALLY a reason (commercially apart) to have a new version of the program each year? It seems to me that very few programs act like this, not only in the music section…we don’t know when W12 will be out, and the same applies to Cubase 14, or Mixcraft 11, or Harrison Mixbus 10 and so on. Whenever the software houses think it’s the right time for a new version, the new version is available, regardless of the month/season of the year! I am a BIAB user since the DOS years, and I will keep on buying BIAB, but probably it would be better if PgMusic could concentrate more on solving the GUI problems, bugs and so on, AND THEN release the new version, no hurry, even next April, or July, it doesn’t really matter. We could even have a new name, such as BIAB PRO 1, this way meaning that the PRO 2 version would be released when it is ready, no mandatory relation to December! Sorry for my English Alfredo http://soundcloud.com/alfredo-de-pietra

Re: No updates and bugfixes since July Uwe Schwarz #786315 12/03/23 04:52 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 15,944 PeterGannon PG Music Staff
PeterGannon PG Music Staff Joined: May 2000 Posts: 15,944	> What I mean is that, in its current state, BIAB provides a trillion fantastic features / options / functionalities, but not a good way to navigate such complex landscape of possibilities We are hoping to address that with years release. Hopefully this will be what you’re looking for. There have been lots of great suggestions, from those in this thread and on the forum, and we hope that we have incorporated many of them. Last edited by PeterGannon; 12/03/23 04:55 PM. Have Fun! Peter Gannon PG Music Inc.

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