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I recently found out about Suno, a new web-based AI music generating program: https://www.suno.ai/It's got all the caveats associated with AI: Are the songs that I generate using Suno subject to copyright protection?
The availability and scope of copyright protection for content generated (in whole or in part) using artificial intelligence is a complex and dynamic area of law, which is rapidly evolving and varies among countries. We encourage you to consult a qualified attorney to advise you about the latest development and the degree of copyright protection available for the output you generate using Suno. Assuming the example songs posted on the site are representative, there are a number things that really impress me about Suno. I'm not sure I could distinguish a song generated by Suno from a commercial song. While there are some artifacts with some of the vocals, the audio quality otherwise seems to be very good. Suno can take user's lyrics and generate a full arrangement from it, in a wide variety of styles. Genre appropriate arrangement, catchy melodic lines, full harmonies - everything. Chat GPT lyrics still sound like Chat GTP lyrics, though.  The singers are very good - expressive, and genre appropriate. Rap music gets a rapper; country music gets a country singer. And it supports multiple languages. Want German, French or Korean? It can do it. Instrumental parts? It's got that as well. Just write "[instrumental]", and it'll render something appropriate. Now, I've still got the same reservations about using AI to generate music and lyrics. And I've got to wonder where it got all the training data from. That's somebody's voice it learned, and some writer's melody that it's copying, and some instrumentalist that's been sampled. Unlike BiaB, I'm sure that none of these people have been compensated for using their recordings as source material for the songs. So ethically and legally, I don't see how anything created by this could be protected by copyright. (The lyrics still retain copyright, but that's a different matter). But again - except for the occasional glitches in the vocals, I'm not sure I could distinguish what Suno generates from non-AI music.
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Yeah. Nice find David. I have been watching their Discord in the hope that they will publish an API so I can integrate with LyricLab. In this way an ordinary man in the street can make a once off personalised song for someone special. (Say for your wife on your wedding anniversary). I think this is the way music is going. It is becoming more and more democratised.
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Good find David, I'm impressed, now if somehow we could get something like that to work within biab.
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Assuming the example songs posted on the site are representative, there are a number things that really impress me about Suno. I totally agree, some of the material posted is extraordinary high quality. Boundaries have been pushed with this, for sure. Is this the tip of the iceberg?
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I can only hear plastic music. Technically impressive, yes, but even a mediocre karaoke midi file from the 90s has more soul than that.
If you take the soul out of the music, there's nothing left.To me, this is just disrespectful to real music and real musicians, it's just sad.
Last edited by Cerio; 03/09/24 02:14 AM.
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc.
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc. I surely hope that never happens.
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc. Many here want that to happen. Going to the circus without buying a ticket...
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc. Many here want that to happen. Going to the circus without buying a ticket... Yes! And they want that to happen in BiaB.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
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To me BIAB is a borderline between creative process and automation. And even that > (BIAB) is somewhat making me lazy  But it's a great tool for sketches, prototyping YOUR ideas. Anything beyond that is more of a craft, unless you figure out how to make it very creative. But that will require brain power beyond button clicking. " In this way an ordinary man in the street can make a once off personalised song for someone special." - Joanne, that is an example of "craft" in my book, similar to a sticker pamphlets sold for 2-3 year olds, which has little to do with creative music writing/process. If the goal is to have automated musical greeting card writing, go for it! In my humble view, If you lack desire to work on any (or combination) of: harmony, melody, lyrics, performance (instrumental or vocal), rhythm, improvisation... It has little to do with music creation.
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"but I think eventually AI will be able to write and record a song, better or even equal to a real human's input." Sure, that's why we should not waste time and stop playing music immediately. Same goes for sports, video games, books, puzzles, drawing, painting, sculpting, writing and many many others. Because AI can/will do it better, and some might argue just live "life" better than pathetic us "We can mourn the human creative process". In chess, machines were able to "win" over humans with ease for decades. Yet, we still enjoy PLAYING that GAME and praise our best. The question which should be asked talking about this: "press one button songwrite and record" Does this process of "button pressing" makes you a creative person? If that's the goal of course.... ----- 2044... Full time creative job opening. Professional button presser. Pre-requisite 4 years of college.
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Agree with all those points Rusty, I couldn't help a smile when I read a review from a use on Trustpilot,
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I am absolutely dissatisfied with free plan of suno.ai . Suno ai owns all users generated output. I do not want to use it because I do not like to allow SunoAI to earn money from my creativity. I do not recommend strongly this website.,.
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He mentions creativity, what creativity!
But still AI marches on it seems, and I find it fascinating.
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I am absolutely dissatisfied with free plan of suno.ai . Suno ai owns all users generated output. I do not want to use it because I do not like to allow SunoAI to earn money from my creativity. I do not recommend strongly this website. I believe that using people's music without compensation as training data for AI programs is unethical. However, complaining that they have to pay for a service if they want to use it to use the output commercially is nonsense.
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I've made music for 20 years. I started out making synth-pop and new wave. I have used Band-in-a-Box for ideas, but never in my final creations.
Since I discovered Suno, I've had an idea for a chord progression in a song, put that in the lyrics, and tried about 20 times to get something close to my original vision.
Then, I split the tracks into stems with Musicfy, remove the vocals, and add some elements in FL Studio. Then I kick that into the chord analyzer in BIAB, find a good backing track and solo, and kick that back out to FL Studio. Then I sing along and use my vocals as well as licensed AI vocals with Musicfy, and walla, I have a creation. It sounds nuts, but it takes about a day for an entire song.
The last song I made was a country song with a silly title: "You look pretty". I refined Suno's output with BIAB fiddles and some rhythm elements, along with my own and licensed AI vocals. I did keep some instrumental stems from Suno.
I don't know how ethical it is, but it's so mutated by the time I put it on YouTube; who knows? It's new territory.
I make country, synth-pop, new wave, dark wave, and acoustic music.
My main instrument is Piano.
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I don't know how ethical it is, but it's so mutated by the time I put it on YouTube; who knows? It's new territory. It's new territory.
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I don't know how ethical it is, but it's so mutated by the time I put it on YouTube; who knows? It's new territory. I'm going to pretend "ethical" and "legal" are the same thing, but obviously they aren't. Is this really new territory? Artists have forever been copying other artists, but changing enough elements so that they can't be sued. That's what you're doing here. The main difference is that the lyrics are still held under your copyright, so other people can't just copy your song wholesale. But... they could copy your melody, since even after your changes, you still don't have a copyright on it - even if it's a pastiche of AI melodies. Whether someone would know that the melody was AI generated is a different matter.
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AI in the creativity world is certainly full of controversy. I will say we use a licensed version of a popular AI at my work. You can feed it a pile of data and ask it to present it in any number of ways and it will almost instantly generate all the graphs, slides, summaries, video, just about anything you want. It only seems to be limited by your imagination. So it saves huge amounts of time. Of course in the near future it will take someone's place because you won't need that admin person to do that for you etc. So, more controversy. The government is behind working on regulation, so the cat is out of the proverbial bag. Tennessee just passed a law protecting musicians from AI. I have not read the text or even a summary, but it will be interesting to see how and if it works.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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I sell music on Pond5 and one company, that makes AI music or working on programming it, bought a whole bunch of my (casual) music in one buy tlast year.
So I got recompensated.
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@dcuny Ready for the next step? Try udio.com. This should soon offer stems download and is currently beta. It's stereo.
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Suddenly I feel so..... what's the word?????
Useless?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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@dcuny Ready for the next step? Try udio.com. This should soon offer stems download and is currently beta. It's stereo. Yeah, it appears to be the "next big thing" in AI music. And unlike Suno, it appears that Udio is actually licensing their material. However, AI generated material still can't be copyrighted. But while I find AI generated music interesting, I'm not really interested in using AI generated music because it does all the parts of the music that I consider to be what makes it my own.
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...now if somehow we could get something like that to work within biab. Although not within Band-in-a-Box, in this video Bob Doyle Media shows how Suno can be used as a great starting point, especially when you pair it with Band-in-a-Box! -Callie
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Suno, or any other Ai, and BiaB are just tools and you can choose to use them or not.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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It is easy to become fearful and irritated by new ways of doing things. I think the older we get the more change becomes uncomfortable. There is good reason to fear some techonology, atomic weapons come to mind. AI has some issues. Can AI kill off all the humans? Perhaps. Is that a big deal or any great loss? Likely not. We are most likely much less important than we would like to believe. We will be able to play and create music fora long time into the future. We will also find it harder to monatize and collect on those efforts as time goes by. AI will play and create music and at some point will be most likely be indistinguishable from human made music. Many of us have concerns about ethical issues but I fear we are in the minority. Good, bad, right, wrong and ethical issues tend to disapear as distance from shore increases...lol Riders On The Storm ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/FsgnNa1.jpg) Cheers Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 04/23/24 05:02 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Revisiting this topic. After doing a load of research and speaking with our AI guys at work I have a better understanding. Suno and others like it are not regurgitating others music, or sampling it or copying it or any of that. It was trained, supposedly on copyrighted music and based on all that training when given a prompt it actually creates a unique output that meets what it knows about that genre and any other qualifiers you may have used. In some cases it is quite spectacular. It still has hallucinations, gives you nonsense lyrics when you have checked the instrumental toggle for instance. But over all very impressive. I like it to many of us who learned how to play our instruments by learning from the people we studied or looked up to etc. I learned to play guitar copying Chet Atkins records, note for note. Now I can create something completely mine but I did it by learning what he did.
So in summary Suno and others are not just combining pieces of other music and calling it new. It generates from scratch a song, using programming of course, that mimics what it has learned that song should sound like, what instruments it should have, how that should sound, and what they should play given a chord structure it created as well. You ask for a blues instrumental in slide guitar and it pretty much nails it.
Last edited by etcjoe; 07/10/24 09:46 AM. Reason: Fix some spelling.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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Revisiting this topic. After doing a load of research and speaking with our AI guys at work I have a better understanding. Suno and others like it are not regurgitating others music, or sampling it or copying it or any of that. In some cases, it is "regurgitating other's music" - or at least portions of other people's copyright material. For example, it's been shown to generate producer's tags - basically audio signatures placed at the start of tracks. It was trained, supposedly on copyrighted music and based on all that training when given a prompt it actually creates a unique output that meets what it knows about that genre and any other qualifiers you may have used. Those "qualifiers" are how it categorizes elements of the songs that it's learned. Using the right qualifiers, it's possible to make Suno create output that is quite similar to copyright materials. Given that Suno is able to generate copyright-infringing output, it's clear that no "supposedly" is needed. Sunu is being trained on copyrighted material for which they have no license to use. AI companies attempt to stop this by preventing users from using certain descriptors, but with some clever prompt engineering people have been able to get around that restriction. So in summary Suno and others are not just combining pieces of other music and calling it new. Yes and no. It's not "combining" in the sense that it takes the first few seconds from one song, and then a couple more seconds from another song. But it is combining in the sense that it's learning songs, and then creating output by morphing elements of those learned songs. It's certainly more sophisticated that cutting and pasting between songs. But without having learned those songs - and stored them in its neural network - it would be unable to create new songs. It generates from scratch a song, using programming of course, that mimics what it has learned that song should sound like, what instruments it should have, how that should sound, and what they should play given a chord structure it created as well. I'm not sure what "using programming" means, but it doesn't really generate a song "from scratch". It generates a song by morphing together learned elements of songs from the training set. It just happens to have a huge amount of songs to draw from, so it's often difficult to see where it's come from. But choose enough descriptors that match the training data, and it'll spit out elements of those songs, showing that it's just copying after all.
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But choose enough descriptors that match the training data, and it'll spit out elements of those songs, showing that it's just copying after all. My wife, daughter and I were listening to a choral festival this afternoon. My kid was in the concert hall (one of her works was on the program) while we were streaming it at home in California. A piece came on and it was clear that the “composer” had asked an AI bot for something in the style of Sibelius. The words made no sense at all but the music was way, way too close to Finlandia for comfort. As we were discussing this at home, the signature chord change occurred and my daughter texted, “Turn left at Helsinki”. That text was easily the highlight of the piece. Sibelius is still under copyright in many countries for another three years. Finlandia is in the PD in the US, however, so there’s nothing that anyone would do on that score. The blatant sound-alike was cringeworthy per my daughter’s post concert report and my wife and I thought the same thing. A new arrangement using the tune with decent lyrics would have been preferable—what we heard was embarrassing.
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Whatever about the legalities involved, we can let the lawyers sort that one out, Ai music making is sure as hell entertaining and will only get better. You can probably tell I am a big fan!
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Billy, well said! This all reminds me of the Sony's pitch of their Aibo robo doggie in 90s. "Just like a real dog..." I prefer music (for the most part) that is made by humans, not a parody - even a very realistic one. A taste thing. Curiosity - sure it's a fun technology. A tool - likely useful, if you are not substituting a skill that you already have. If you have a $100-200 printer and can print 100 variations of Mona Lisa a day with crisp detail and vivid colors, this doesn't make it an "art", or you - an artist. Same as watching sports - doesn't make you an athlete. A new generation of Promtomusic (c). P.S. What is great, that centuries of music is available to purchase or rent either digital or CDs, LPs, etc. No shortage of good entertainment for my lifetime
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I lost the thrust of my point, I think we all create music, using what we learned from other music, in a similar way that our AI engineers here at my work describe to me what is going on. It just has the capacity to ingest 1000's of those songs and use it to generate its output. Do I have to attribute Chuck Berry when I use a double stop lick in my playing? Nope, but everyone that hears it and knows Chuck Berry can pretty much know it was lifted from him.
I know in my experimenting, I can't get it to create anything that sounds like something else I already know except in style and genre etc which it nails almost every time. does it use chord progressions that are prominent in those styles? Sure it does just like every songwriter on the planet. ii V I anybody?
It will certainly be decided by the lawyers and the courts. The big "record" companies are mad because they think they should be the only ones exploiting artists. how dare the computer guys get in on their game. If anybody is going to rip off an artist they want it to be them and nobody else!! LOL.
Lots of good points being made here by some level headed people though.
In the meantime, some of the AI stuff I have played with has given me some really good ideas!
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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In this explosive fire storm of technical innovation we are all witnessing (aka AI development), my hope is that BiaB doesn't become obsolete.
More than ever, companies large and small must adapt, incorporate, pivot and invent or face decline.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Yes, indeed. The sky is falling — again.
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I lost the thrust of my point, I think we all create music, using what we learned from other music, in a similar way that our AI engineers here at my work describe to me what is going on. When you create music, you don't draw from the audio signatures of millions of songs to generate not only replicate chord progressions, but instruments, vocals, and studio effects. It just has the capacity to ingest 1000's of those songs and use it to generate its output. Not "1000's", but millions of songs. Songwriters remember songs. AI doesn't remember anything - it stores the information in a neural network and uses that to create songs that are based on that information. AI is designed as a tool that learns the elements of millions of song - including the voices and the instruments - and then creates new songs by mixing elements of those songs. Every song created is a remix of a prior song. That's entirely unlike how people learn and replicate music. As a small example, AI isn't going to include ideas inspired by a T.S. Eliot poem, the death of a loved one, or a seeing a rose in a garden. Every word that AI writes is taken from lyrics from someone else's song, using voices copied from other singers. Do I have to attribute Chuck Berry when I use a double stop lick in my playing? Nope, but everyone that hears it and knows Chuck Berry can pretty much know it was lifted from him. But AI doesn't know whether something it replicates is copyright infringing or not, because it's all potentially copyright infringing. Everything it does is created by a process of copying. The difference is that the process of replicating the sounds can usually hide the source material because there's so much of it. I know in my experimenting, I can't get it to create anything that sounds like something else I already know except in style and genre etc... That's not because it can't do that, but because the designers have intentionally hidden those controls from you. But AI can very much create songs with Elvis' voice, or riffs created by Chuck Berry. ...which it nails almost every time. does it use chord progressions that are prominent in those styles? Sure it does just like every songwriter on the planet. ii V I anybody? Because it mixes together inputs, AI songs tend to be an average of the training data. So it will tend to make generic choices, except when it drops signature sounds, like guitar licks and vocals. Equating the process that AI uses with the process songwriters uses is a false equivalence. AI doesn't have its own voice, the ability to play guitar, or the ability to consider the emotional impact of its lyrics. It will certainly be decided by the lawyers and the courts. The big "record" companies are mad because they think they should be the only ones exploiting artists. how dare the computer guys get in on their game. If anybody is going to rip off an artist they want it to be them and nobody else!! LOL. Unfortunately, this is likely to be 100% accurate. It seems that companies that own the copyright aren't interested in preventing AI from competing with artists, but are more interested in making sure they get a piece of that pie.
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I have been using Suno for a couple of weeks now and I’m very impressed. I’m am trying to create a bunch of blues songs for a “concept” album about my journey with Parkinson’s.
I’ve created all of the backing tracks in my usual workflow. Start in BIAB, then to Studio to improve parts that I am capable with guitar and limited keyboard skillls. But I hate singing voice.
I became aware of different Ai apps that can either improve your voice or replace with one I might like better. In the process I stumbled upon Suno.
I put in a prompt for “a Chicago Blues Shuffle with Horns 120 BPM” I entered my own lyrics.
What I got was astonishing! I got a great blues tune with appropriate breaks and song structure. It created a chorus portion that I never would’ve imagined and a great ending. There is virtually no support for the product. So I watched a lot of YouTube videos and learned more about writing prompts and part markers I.e., verse chorus intro outro pre-chorus etc.
I created a song that, after 3 regens that was what I was looking for and much better than I would’ve done on my own. I had a blues song with an excellent, very expressive male singer and a great song structure with lots of dynamics and breaks that I never would’ve thought of. In my headphones it sounded perfect. The guitar solos were really excellent (although the tone was a little too distorted) the horns were enough in the background to keep their artificial sound obvious. The rhythm guitar was spot on as were the drums and the bass. The cymbals had a hiss that I hope I can resolve.
So I split all the tracks on Moises Ai (then only stem splitter I’m aware of that can split rhythm and lead guitar). The quality of the individual stems were less than professional particularly the drums.
I don’t have BIAB 2025 because I’m on Mac, but it looks as though some of the new features might allow me to recreate parts that need recreating.
Ai is still in the infant stage. Maybe the stage where the infant starts crawling. But in a few years it will be very good.
It will still require a skilled person to create the music and eventually the public will differentiate between canned music and music that required talent and skills.
People who resist it will be left behind.
I hope Peter and the rest of PG are staying on top of Ai (I think they are) because it can be the death of BIAB or it can enhance BIAB and become part of the music creation workflow of the future.
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I can only hear plastic music. Technically impressive, yes, but even a mediocre karaoke midi file from the 90s has more soul than that.
If you take the soul out of the music, there's nothing left.To me, this is just disrespectful to real music and real musicians, it's just sad. It's only plastic if you use it and are inexperienced with music structure. Just inputing a few prompts and pressing a button is certainly going to produce something of lesser quality at least to some of our ears.But for others it can be a means of expressing something locked away in their minds that they otherwise couldn't release. I think we've lost touch about what creativity and expression are. We, also, often confuse creativity and expression with performance. Both sometimes require talent, especially the performance part. However a performer doesn't necessarily mean they are creative... they have maybe never written a song/score in their lives. Expression on the other hand isn't about talent, it's about getting out what we are feeling and using whatever tools we have available to us to accomplish that. As a musician I understand this fundamental aspect. I'm a musician (guitarist)/songwriter/producer and have played around with SUNO. It can be an impressive tool for musicians/songwriters if there were finer controls. However, it continues to evolve and every couple of weeks or so, they are adding tighter controls for users. What I like to do is record some riffs/melody, on guitar, upload it to SUNO and have it re-interpret my audio sample, then begin fleshing out a score around it. I then save as a WAV file and use OpenVINO (in Audacity) to seperate the stems. I can then bring the drum stem into Reaper and use Groove Agent to rebuild the drums (manually), then the bass lines and add any other instruments I want. Then I can record any guitars myself. I see AI, in the future, simply becoming like a word processor (as it is to writers), but for songwriters. Take a look at Ace Studio, it is impressive for AI vocals, giving very minute control to the producer and it is trained ethicly. Once those fine tuned controls are in place, songwriters (in the near future) will laugh at those of us who worked 2yrs on a song, never to get it the way we envisioned it, but they can produce the ideas locked away in their heads with absolute precision in a few hours or days!
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.... I created a song that, after 3 regens that was what I was looking for and much better than I would’ve done on my own. I had a blues song with an excellent, very expressive male singer and a great song structure with lots of dynamics and breaks that I never would’ve thought of. In my headphones it sounded perfect.....
So I split all the tracks on Moises Ai (then only stem splitter I’m aware of that can split rhythm and lead guitar). The quality of the individual stems were less than professional particularly the drums. I would suggest playing around with some of the other tools in SUNO... (Extend, Replace Section and Crop). They will give you finer (albeit limited) control over the final piece. These tools didn't work all too well back in December and January but are working much better now. Also, if you are familiar with Audacity, you can add the Intel OpenVINO AI plugin to it and after importing your WAV file from SUNO, you can split the stems. It does pretty well on drums, bass and vocals. It will not seperate rythym guitar/lead etc though. If you use OpenVINO I recommend using '8 Shifts (the max)', found under the Advanced Options to seperate the stems. It takes longer but seems to produce better results on drums, bass, vocals.
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Billy, well said! This all reminds me of the Sony's pitch of their Aibo robo doggie in 90s. "Just like a real dog..." I prefer music (for the most part) that is made by humans, not a parody - even a very realistic one. A taste thing. Curiosity - sure it's a fun technology. A tool - likely useful, if you are not substituting a skill that you already have. If you have a $100-200 printer and can print 100 variations of Mona Lisa a day with crisp detail and vivid colors, this doesn't make it an "art", or you - an artist. Same as watching sports - doesn't make you an athlete. A new generation of Promtomusic (c). P.S. What is great, that centuries of music is available to purchase or rent either digital or CDs, LPs, etc. No shortage of good entertainment for my lifetime Honestly, it's all subjective. AI music creation is really only a little more than a year old. It's a baby by any standard. Once finer controls are put in place, there won't be too many artists, in the near future, NOT using it in their creative processes. I don't know of any writers still using a typewriter (and some don't write at all, instead, hiring someone to write their ideas/story for them). Ethical training of AI, however, is certainly a concern, but another matter altogether. Also, expressing oneself, doesn't require 'skill'. Performing on an instrument does, of course, but that doesn't make that person someone who has 'creative', or even 'expressive', skills. Songwriting requires some skill, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that person can perform on an instrument very well. Creative processes are about getting expressive thoughts and ideas out, in tangible form, what one has bottled up inside them. If the tool that allows one to do that just so happens to be AI, then all the more power to them. Final thoughts. Used as a tool, skillfully, it can be a great aid to musicians/songwriters/producers. For those who have expressive ideas locked up inside their heads, but no skills on an instrument (or knowledge of music structure) or access to those who do, it can be a fun and creative way to let it out. However, I see it as garbage in/garbage out (but again, that's my opinion and is completely subjective), but I have heard some extremely creative stuff generated by a few people that has impressed me as a traditional musician/songwriter/producer, with over 40yrs experience, and I have no doubt that there was a lot of thought and effort behind the input/lyrics, etc.
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Suddenly I feel so..... what's the word?????
Useless? LOL, we old dogs just have to adapt! Been learning to use various AI tools in my creative process since December and have been having a lot of fun, but it requires me to learn a lot of new toolsets, which aren't so easy to learn... and that is NOT so fun!
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If AI in music takes after AI in Teaching, our goose is cooked.  I can create just about anything I want as a teacher in AI in seconds. It just strips out everything mechanical or mundane. All I have to do is read it and check it. Then iteratively improve it. What's more there are dozens of programs to choose from. I reckon teachers are starting to use AI far more than students. I suspect music will go the same way. As DJJimBob commented, I suspect it's how you use it to make it yours that will redefine our creativity. We're on the cusp of a brave new (possibly dehumanized) paradigm in many areas of life. Anyway tried the programs to make a website using AI? Quite an eye opener as well. A few funnies, like Ms Chan and Mr Wong with pictures of Caucasians of the wrong gender. Just create fake people in a graphic AI program to replace them. A brave new world.
Last edited by lambada; 03/20/25 07:23 PM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
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Take a look at Ace Studio, it is impressive for AI vocals, giving very minute control to the producer and it is trained ethicly. Once those fine tuned controls are in place, songwriters (in the near future) will laugh at those of us who worked 2yrs on a song, never to get it the way we envisioned it,... Uh... yeah... I have ACE Studio. It doesn't pronounce the English language very well. Perhaps if I worked on a track for two years... Don't get me wrong, I like it for demos but IMO, it's just not very good yet.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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If AI in music takes after AI in Teaching, our goose is cooked. I can create just about anything I want as a teacher in AI in seconds. It just strips out everything mechanical or mundane. All I have to do is read it and check it The reading and checking is important, though, as AI sometimes gets things badly wrong.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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I have to say this is the single reason I very seldom come here anymore.
It's been almost 2 months since my last comment.
And that was a question.
Mike H and Herb were kind enough to help me with answers from experience.
The last word is what I personally feel is important in taking advice from anyone.
Experience.
AI song generation is like anything.
I don't feel it's great on its own, but it's powerful in the hands of an artist.
Someone who takes the time to truly learn it as a skill.
Most of the opinions I've seen here are typically (to be clear, not always) from people who have very little experience with actually making songs using these technologies.
Damn, do they have strong opinions on it though.
You can keep arguing your opinions, but guess what?
They have virtually no impact on the outcome.
NONE of us really has much say in this that will change anything.
To me, it's wasted time taking you from actually doing something musically that CAN impact someone.
Your music!
Even if it's just for your own enjoyment.
And if you are able to move someone else emotionally by it, hey that's a bonus.
But arguing opinions is so much easier than actually making music.
People who can’t write a lick of music could come here and argue their opinions.
The things that are important to many musicians, many times, the listener doesn't know or even want to know.
They. Don't. Care.
In their world, they like the song or they don't.
They couldn't tell you if the thing filling the track out is a 12-string Martin or a marimba.
The best you will maybe get is "See, now that sounds gooood."
And I would take that over some in-depth explanation of how different BIAB is vs. a virtual instrument using MIDI vs. Udio pumping something out, any day.
So as far as my own results with AI, I think I've done decent with it.
My tests are simple.
Do I like how it turned out?
If yes, great.
If not, back to the skill board and learn from it.
It's sort of the same mentality as learning an instrument, mixing (which I still suck at), basically anything that is a skill.
That's life.
Debating and arguing is also a skill.
Yet, I have far from mastered that.
You may be in the same boat as me though if this is still going on like this.
In the two months I've mostly been gone, the same old rehashed opinions are still trying to be "proven."
I don't want to say where to spend your time, but many of you are so damn talented, it's a little disheartening to see you spending your time on things like this instead.
I hear and feel your songs.
I just wish there were more of them.
I hope none of this comes across as preachy.
That is NOT my intent by a long shot.
I just feel some of you are being called from your greatness for lesser things.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Chad, it's always good to see a post you've made in the forum. You always offer great insights and focus on music. Mike Halloran and Herb Hartley did such a good job answering your question about "bass shaker" amplifier there wasn't much to add to their responses.
I agree with you the forum atmosphere has changed. Perhaps the forum is more of a reflection of the society we live in than it was in times past. I don't know but I recognize there is a change. This ain't the friendliest forum on the internet any more.
Take care.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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AI lies as well. I've had it do multiple choice questions on chapters of books the kids are supposed to read and it's not averse to making up stuff. One AI instructional course I did suggested to not ask more than 10 multiple choice questions at a time of AI as the quality drops. Having said that I just got one sight to give me simple sentences in the present tense using various verbs with translations into Cantonese and it churned out 150 in seconds. One website will look at your lesson plan activities (eg from AI) and critique it for positive and negative possible outcomes so that you can think more about the lesson plan or activities if necessary or not use it. Amazing stuff. I just use Suno to write a song to my wife for our wedding anniversary. Life saver!
Last edited by lambada; 03/21/25 06:23 PM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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One of the reasons I have been absent here. I've been working on music for several of the listings and in the agreement I signed, it says no posting online of anything that I submit to a project. Doing so risks my deal with the publisher. So....
I just signed a number of tracks to one of my publishers. When they sent out the 2025 first quarter music listings and cover sheet, there was a notification that if we hadn't already read and signed the new writer's agreement, that we would need to do that before submitting any new tracks.
There was a very specific and detailed section on the use of AI generated music and lyrics, saying do not use AI in any aspect of creating music. It actually went well beyond that however, by placing a prohibition on the use of the synth vocals in any submission.
Anyone who violates that section of the agreement is subject to being banned from the publisher and ALL of their music removed from the catalog.
It has to do with the copyright controversy or to say it more accurately, the lack of being able to legally copyright the music under the current US-LOC regulations regarding AI and copyright.
The comment in the body of the email advising everyone to be aware of the new section of the agreement essentially said if you are going to be a writer and composer of music, you should be able to write and compose without the aid of a machine....or else, why do it?
Makes sense to me.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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There was a very specific and detailed section on the use of AI generated music and lyrics, saying do not use AI in any aspect of creating music. It actually went well beyond that however, by placing a prohibition on the use of the synth vocals in any submission.
Anyone who violates that section of the agreement is subject to being banned from the publisher and ALL of their music removed from the catalog.
It has to do with the copyright controversy or to say it more accurately, the lack of being able to legally copyright the music under the current US-LOC regulations regarding AI and copyright. Sounds familiar. I'm using some AI tools but only for knocking out demos where the tools do save time and are worth the money. …you should be able to write and compose without the aid of a machine....or else, why do it? Exactly!
BIAB 2024 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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I posted on this thread back in January. I have since spent a lot of time with Suno Ai. On Thursday May 29th my Album "My Friend Parky" will be available on 100+ streaming platforms (if you search your favorite site with my name - David Rabinow- you should be able to find it. It is about 40-50% Ai. I'm very proud of the work.
This is going to be long, Bear with me.
I have Parkinson's Disease and for the last year and a half I've been writing songs about Parkinson's. And the abum is definitely targeted at people with experiences with PD. As my diseased has progressed my skills have diminished fairly sharply. Since I'm a guitarist I'm am most concerned with how I play on a recording, but I just can't play the way I used to.
I stumbled onto Ai music while I was starting to record some of the songs. I created a voice clone on Ace Studio from my voice and then altered it to be something that doesn't make me cringe. My plan was to record my singing into Ace Studio and then edit in a very midi like format. Unfortunately Ace Studio seems to have a lot of difficulty with English and the results were awful.
Then I found Udio and Suno. They're pretty similar, but Suno allowed me to use my voice clone. My original plan was to create songs in Suno and then splitting the tracks in one of the many Ai stem splitters on the market and then recreate them in my home studio. But because of my limitations the results weren't very good.
I started using more and more of the Suno stems. In the end most of the drums are from Suno. Drums have always been a major obstacle for me. I've never been able to program or write drums so I have relied on BIAB for drums most of the time. EZ Drummer and Logic Session drummer have never worked for me. Suno's drums are MUCH better than BIAB with one huge exception. The sound quality of the cymbals is awful. But the drums are much better at fills and accents and breaks and al the stuff that you want your drummer to do.
Suno, and all the other Ai music is at an infant stage - actually probably more like a three year old - because it doesn't really do what you want it to do. Typically, I take my lyrics and input them into suno and uploaded an audio clip of me singing the first 30 seconds of the song. I add a bunch of prompts (which take a while to understand) fo Genre, BPM, Time signature, and descriptors for mood. In the lyrics I put in prompts for verse, bridge, chorus, etc. But also performance prompts, i.e., soft voice, harmony, rising intensity, pause, and such. Then I hit create and in about 30 seconds I have two versions of my song. In a few very rare cases, I've gotten what I wanted the first time. Suno doesn't take direction very well. And sometimes I have to run thirty or forty versions before I get what I want.
But here's the cool part. Sometimes Suno's ideas of how my song should sound is better than my own ideas and opened up new directions. After a couple of weeks I started to think of Suno as being like the guys in my band from a previous lifetime. And then eventually I started to think of Suno as a collaborator.
In the end I was able to cull 11 songs and make the album. A critical listen will expose all the flaws in Ai music. But you won't hear them in a casual listen. When the prompts and lyrics overcome the Suno engine it spits out little artificacts. I have done my best to erase them with Melodyne, but the artifacts are often imbedded in the actual note. I'm pretty sure Izotope Spectral Editor could do the job but that's out of my price range. But for me a lot of the artifacts are there.
As to the ethics of using an engine that is trained on using samples from artists without attribution or renumeration, I have to say that as a blues guitarist I was very good at regurgitating what I learned listening to B. B. King, T-Bone Walker, Buddy guy, Mike Bloomfield and dozens of others. In some circumstances that only appears as influence while at other times I WANT to sound like B. B. King. And, Suno claims to have hired and or payed musicians to train their engine.
As far as Ai being some kind of cheating, I have to disagree. We all use tools to make music. But what if, like me, you don't have the skills to play music, but you have something to say and you want to say it musically. In the early days there will be a lot of awful Ai music and some of it will be on the top of the charts. Eventually I believe that the true talent will rise to the top.
It seems possible to me that the next George Gershwyn or John Lennon could be someone who is disabled in some way but now has the ability to express their genius talent they were born with. I don't love B B King because of his technical skills (although if you look on youtube yo can find some examples of him really shredding), I love him for they way he expresses himself.
And finally, a lot of us are using Ai tools in our music workflow. I use many Izotope products, almost all of them use Ai within their features. I've been using EZMix for years and the latest version uses Ai expensively. Ai is here and it's not going away. You can ignore it for now but eventually you'll have to embrace it. I hope that PG Music is looking at how they can integrate Ai in BIAB. There may be a perfect song creation program that's half BIAB anf half Suno. Who Knows?
Thanks for reading
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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