A few months back I was worked on my mixing skills, or lack of, to be more accurate. I wrote a song called "Mistake" that was more of a Female pop song. It was ok.
Recently I decided to mess around a bit more with AI and music, as many have. Some of these are in the same genre or style, but a slightly different feel. In all, for examples, this one goes to 11. So, it's the same chorus from the same song lyrics for all 11. I decided to call it "Many Mistakes." I would be curious any thoughts.
After getting some input I thought about having a discussion around how we could use this. I know some feel that's been discussed to death, but I feel that discussion is just beginning. We may be in trouble.
thanks all! I've missed ya. A lot of life going on right now.
-Chad
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/12/2404:57 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I think that most of the results could easily pass for well done pop music.
Heck, it took me a minute to notice when it got to the end the music and started playing the next song.
As to how we can use it, I'm not sure.
For one thing, no output generated by an AI qualifies for a copyright. That means that anyone could strip the vocals off your song, replace them with another vocal, and there's nothing you could do about it.
These programs have been trained by crawling through the internet and violating copyright, so ethically they're a mess. I think people who think these programs are "creative" fail to realize the massive amount of data that is used to train these programs. Programs like Midjourney process billions of images. Think of how many country songs these programs have been trained on in order to get flawless steel guitar licks.
As a songwriting tool, they're meant to replace the musicians and composers. They do too much to be an idea generator, because in the end, all you're doing is assembling a collage of ideas that were generated by the AI.
This is truly astonishing technology, but they're one-button solutions designed to replace composers, musicians, and mixers - not tools for songwriters.
I enjoyed listening to the first two songs, will have a listen to the rest later.
As Dcuny says could easily pass for well done pop music, and adds
"I think people who think these programs are "creative" fail to realize the massive amount of data that is used to train these programs"
I suppose in a sense songwriters are trained by listening to the songs that have gone before, so in a sense no big deal in that regard.
The copyright issue is a big thing though I agree.
I think what it will boil down to eventually is the general public will not care one iota, if its a good song, whether AI wrote it or a songwriter, and neither would I.
To be honest I just love this Technology, and I think the traditional way of putting a song together can happily co-exist with the AI way.
Anyway though biab is not AI (though at times it may seem it is employing some sort of basic AI) I think we shouldn't be complaining as users of biab that modern AI is going beyond our comfort zone.
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I kinda totally love this. I'd love to see you turn out a CD with every track done to the latest time standard for songs. (Is it still EXACTLY 3:34?) 10 tracks of different iterations of the same song titled "Mistake".
I liken this long running AI debate to the time way back when I caught all kids of grief because I liked techno music so much. All I heard was that sequenced parts controlled by sequencing software and played back through a series of MIDI controlled instruments was "cheating". Everybody I knew hated it. May I list a few bands they "hated"?
Howard Jones The Thompson Twins Talk Talk Gary Neuman The Human League Haircut 100 Flock Of Seagulls Duran Duran Daft Punk Pet Shop Boys Tears For Fears A-Ha Depeche Mode Simple Minds Eurythmics
What makes me laugh is knowing that a lot of the people who put those bands down went on to do solo acts with, you guessed it, backing tracks. And in a true stroke of irony, many of them use backing tracks that they bought rather than programming them. Or even perhaps (gasp) writing their own songs!! The reason they do it is, of course, because they can keep all the money with no band members to pay. And to push the irony further, many of them look down at karaoke. Um.....
Karaoke, correctly written kara oke, is Japanese for "empty orchestra", which is exactly what they are doing. Music with no musicians performing it. The first karaoke machine was called The Sparko Box, a little cube that flashed flights as it played, and the guy who invented it, Shigeichi Negishi, died last month at 100 years of age.
And here we are with software created by the very much alive Dr. Gannon. And discussing AI tools that can replace it.
“The rule should never be such that human creators stand to gain more from repeatedly clicking a button to generate massive amounts of AI-produced materials than from putting their hearts, souls, experiences, skills, talents, and emotions into expressive works of art.”
I need to hear music created by real musicians that sing with their own voices and play their own instruments and let their soul and spirit out in songs that are created.
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It's a dozen examples, an original and 11 variations. How to use the idea is how BIAB has done it since its inception. My BIAB version has 11,165 styles that the process you used can be applied using the StyleMaker to create 11,165 versions of the Chorus lyrics from this posting. One can use Spleeter (BIAB has the capability to include Spleeter or a similar product embedded in later versions of BIAB) to isolate the vocals from your post and apply them into 11,165 versions with very similar results to this process.
More common is to use the process in BIAB to create complete, original, and unique copyrightable songs with arrangements that can be shared and published.
The 11,165 Styles can each be user modified, modified or merged into per-song styles of creating new styles to add to the 11,165. The RealTrack page lists 4,700+ instruments plus some styles include midi patches and SuperMidi patches. The higher versions of BIAB have more than 5,000 hours of studio recorded audio. Open the SGU Chord Sheet and it defaults to two sub-Styles. The program allows for each Chord Sheet to have up to 24 sub-styles that have the feature to modify a Style on a per song basis. Drum patterns, instruments can be muted or replaced with other instruments.
Regarding RealTracks, the BIAB 24 Track Mixer has the feature of each track having an eleven track sub-mixer that can place the original plus 10 other configurable RealTrack instruments on each track. 24 tracks times 11 instruments provide 254 instruments playing possibilities in user-programable configurations per song.
BIAB isn't cheating or ironic by any stretch of the imagination because it requires human intelligence at every step to manipulate it into a song.
I seriously doubt whether, if presented with several "real music" samples interspersed with several AI samples like Chad presented, you could consistently pick which is which! And even assuming you could do it, it won't be long before you won't be able to.
I need to hear music created by real musicians that sing with their own voices and play their own instruments and let their soul and spirit out in songs that are created.
I am sorry to say it all does not sound like crap to ME... I need to hear real honest music, by real players too, but this, to me is quite surprising, and maybe a little disturbing, because it's doesn't sound like crap... ... to me...
After getting some input I thought about having a discussion around how we could use this. I know some feel that's been discussed to death, but I feel that discussion is just beginning. We may be in trouble.
thanks all! I've missed ya. A lot of life going on right now.
-Chad
I have not followed much of the discussions, but find the subject fascinating... I'd love to know how this production was created... what "ai" software? ai assisted? Yes, trouble ahead...
I gotta say, reluctantly, I'm kinda with Eddie on this!
It has always struck me as hilariously ironic that folks who use software like BIAB to create much/most of their music, get all hot and bothered when some new technology like AI comes along and offers ways to do the same thing a bit faster with even less involvement!
Heck, we've even had long arguments here where folks who replace live band members with BIAB bass, drums and rhythm guitar parts in their "live" performances, then turn around and complain that open mic participants are somehow stealing their gig opportunities!
If you're using BIAB or similar tools to create your music you're not much different from the kid using AI to produce his music. You just drew the line in a different place.
Now, as for my personal preference, I would never knowingly go see a performance where the band is using backing tracks OR AI in their "live" performance. And I'd prefer not to knowingly listen to AI music. But going forward I don't think I'll have much choice.
I gotta say, reluctantly, I'm kinda with Eddie on this!
J3 IKR?? When I saw that I almost fell out of my chair!
Quote
Heck, we've even had long arguments here where folks who replace live band members with BIAB bass, drums and rhythm guitar parts in their "live" performances, then turn around and complain that open mic participants are somehow stealing their gig opportunities!
Even more jarring when the whole musical component, to include solos, are presented as a "band". And when the performer is playing something non-descript like bass... wow. Is there a bass solo in every song there, Jaco, so you can show off your chops? Who pays to see a nobody play BASS?
Quote
If you're using BIAB or similar tools to create your music you're not much different from the kid using AI to produce his music. You just drew the line in a different place.
Similar in concept to the early days of 7 foot basketball players. If they were on the opposing team they were "oversized freaks who are ruining the integrity of the game", but when they are on YOUR team they are "a remarkable athlete who takes great advantage of his size".
J3, remember these are the same ilk that said TV was just a fad, decried the invention of the automobile, and refuse to use anything that wasn't the norm when they were young. They also still pay bills with checks that they send in the mail. (Man, it's 2024!!!) I am an old bas***d (I included the ***terisks) and I absolutely LOVE all of this great technology. I can sit in a Discord server and talk to people all over the world in real time. I was chatting with some scambaiting friends last night. We had England, Ireland, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US represented. We can all do baiting calls together, which we do on Wednesday and Thursday. We play characters (with voice changers) and sometimes occupy a scammer for 3 hours straight, during which they can't be calling YOU. This week I played my gangster character, and at one point the guy in England was the bank customer service agent and a woman in Texas was my secretary. We collect bank account and remote connection information and pass it along to the right people to harm the scammer effort as much as we can.
I am trying to imagine my father, who died 34 years ago at 73, understanding what was going on and what kind of voodoo allowed it to happen. Much like the people in the audience in 1993 when Todd Rundgren toured with behind his No World Order album and his "band" was 8 racks of MIDI controlled gear arranged in a circle around him playing lush, lavish arrangements while he pranced around the stage and sang. A woman sitting behind me complained the whole night because he wasn't playing "Hello It's Me". (I REALLY wanted to turn around and say "Lady, that was 20 years ago. People grow. Try it.") I thought it was great. She had no idea how anything worked and had NO intention of embracing anything "different".
Sometimes you just have to turn up the squelch and eliminate the noise.
I had a lot of fun listening to this. I thought songs 5 & 10 are the funniest because they both sound like showbiz dram or something you'd hear in a musical. The modern country pretty much hit the mark and the gospel was spot on. What got me the most though is how earnest all the vocals sounded.
There's a huge difference between these AI programs and BiaB, sample libraries, and MIDI tracks: the AI companies don't have the rights to use the voices and instruments that are in their songs.
They make of point of not telling where they get their materials from, but here's a project in 2020 that described how it gathered its source material (emphasis added):
Quote
To train this model, we crawled the web to curate a new dataset of 1.2 million songs (600,000 of which are in English), paired with the corresponding lyrics and metadata from LyricWiki.
That is, these programs trawl through millions of copyrighted songs to get their training material. No artist has granted them rights to use their materials, and no artist is compensated.
The companies creating the AI programs do a number of things to make it difficult to determine where the source materials come from.
One of the most obvious is omitting artist names in tags. So although the AI is capable of rendering a song with the voice/instrument/arrangement of a particular artist, there's no way to request the AI do so.
And since a specific voice can't be requested, you'll end up getting a voice that's a combines the attributes of similar voices - enough so that the original singer can't be identified.
However, here's something Udio produced when prompted to generate something in the style of the Beatles:
Udio didn't pay the rights holders of The Beatles songs to use their songs, and Paul McCartney didn't authorize Udio to use his voice.
In my mind, this is theft (well, technically massive copyright infringement), disguised the same way that money laundering hides the source of illegal profits.
I gotta say, reluctantly, I'm kinda with Eddie on this!
It has always struck me as hilariously ironic that folks who use software like BIAB to create much/most of their music, get all hot and bothered when some new technology like AI comes along and offers ways to do the same thing a bit faster with even less involvement!
Heck, we've even had long arguments here where folks who replace live band members with BIAB bass, drums and rhythm guitar parts in their "live" performances, then turn around and complain that open mic participants are somehow stealing their gig opportunities!
If you're using BIAB or similar tools to create your music you're not much different from the kid using AI to produce his music. You just drew the line in a different place.
Now, as for my personal preference, I would never knowingly go see a performance where the band is using backing tracks OR AI in their "live" performance. And I'd prefer not to knowingly listen to AI music. But going forward I don't think I'll have much choice.
There's a big difference between using BIAB (or any other piece of software) as a tool to assist the musician in the process of music creation and using a computer program to completely replace the musician AND the music creation process.
I personally don't find these songs sound bad at all (actually they sound pretty professional to me), I just find they sound pretty generic, uninteresting and soulless, it's just plastic music, like 90% of commercial music nowadays. So far so good.
But asking a computer program to compose a song about, say, falling in love, pressing a button, and getting a complete and finished product has absolutely nothing to do with the beautiful, complex and ancient art of music composition. And the same can be said about asking an AI to write a novel, a poem, or a movie script for you. There is and there will never be absolutely no value in such a thing.
What I find deeply sad is that some people seems to start to find this type of pseudo "art" interesting and acceptable. If this tendency goes on, who would want to invest time and effort in learning to play an instrument in the future? Who will want to spend years in learning to speak a language? Who will want to read a book? Who will want to spend years in an art school? Who is going to want to make any effort to learn anything if everyone thinks that computers do everything better and more efficiently?
If this tendency goes on, we will be much more stupid in a few years than we are today. Thank you, but count me out.
You make very reasonable points. Cerio. Thank you for that.
I think I like what AI might have to offer. So far I have not got involved with it, as I'm concerned I might become reliant, perhaps too reliant.
I think I can see where it can be unbelievably beneficial (advances in medicine, cures for disease, science, technology), but as far as art-forms exist, the human mind needs to always nurture that creativity. Venture as we dare to, but keep in mind the real reasons that art exists. Because of us.
Regardless, I certainly don't mean to derail this thread. The O/P has generously shared their own results which no doubt consist of informative, interesting and enlightening (perhaps even somewhat surprising) results. The results are incredibly amazing. Imagine thinking that a microprocessor could do that a decade ago (or less)? No? I can't either. (I just hope Skynet is not monitoring )
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Intriguing post. I'm not a fan of the IDEA of AI songs, even when they sound as much like modern popular music as these do. On the other hand, I'd LOVE to have AI work up my music videos. Is that weird?
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I think that most of the results could easily pass for well done pop music.
Heck, it took me a minute to notice when it got to the end the music and started playing the next song.
As to how we can use it, I'm not sure.
That's pretty much how I felt when I first heard some of the examples as well.
I feel there could be many uses for it. I'll say a bit more further down in my reply.
Quote
For one thing, no output generated by an AI qualifies for a copyright. That means that anyone could strip the vocals off your song, replace them with another vocal, and there's nothing you could do about it.
Very true. I can see where some people might absolutely hate that. I'm not entirely sure where I fall on that yet either. I'm still trying to figure out where that line is as far as at what point is actually something you could copywrite. I've read some things that were somewhat vague. I'm wondering if that's on purpose? Any insights on this? I know you're researched it A LOT, which is greatly appreciated.
Quote
These programs have been trained by crawling through the internet and violating copyright, so ethically they're a mess. I think people who think these programs are "creative" fail to realize the massive amount of data that is used to train these programs. Programs like Midjourney process billions of images. Think of how many country songs these programs have been trained on in order to get flawless steel guitar licks.
This aspect of it has me go back and forth a lot. I feel I know your stance on it from what you've posted. I think we would disagree; and I'm ok with that. I know you are a great guy, who puts a lot of thought into what you are saying, and it comes from a place of truly researching this subject...you're educated. We've just arrived at different conclusions and I completely respect yours.
Quote
As a songwriting tool, they're meant to replace the musicians and composers. They do too much to be an idea generator, because in the end, all you're doing is assembling a collage of ideas that were generated by the AI.
This is truly astonishing technology, but they're one-button solutions designed to replace composers, musicians, and mixers - not tools for songwriters.
As of now, I would say it's definitely not there yet. Having worked on these projects I learned a lot...especially the limitations and annoyance of having to figure out how to communicate those ideas into something useable. Even at that, after the fact, I still had to do a fair amount of editing to get to somewhat work. Sure, the sound might be mostly right, but the structure, and uniqueness of the song have a long way to go. I do think the will definitely be closer to if not, exactly what you are saying down the road though. I'm sure you already know that though.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I know some feel that's been discussed to death, but I feel that discussion is just beginning. We may be in trouble. 
)
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