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Quote:
Don't get a sore trout, eh?
I caught a sore trout once. Hung him on my wall and he kept singing:
Gimme back that Filet 'O Fish
Gimme that fish
What if it were you hanging up on this wall?
If it were you in that sandwich, you wouldn't be laughing at all.
A sore trout can be very annoying. 
Keith
2026 Audiophile Windows 11 RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,SONAR,3 Raven Mtis
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I hesitate whether to wade into this conversation.
I understand that there are differing opinions in this thread. I will offer personal experiences as well as discussion with co-workers that are audiologists that deal with Ian's request, as well as input from my company's years of leading the in-ear monitor industry.
The situation is not nearly as simple as it may seem.
Many factors in effect. Ian's link highlights a good lion's share of them.
Pitch perception and one's ability to control one's own voice to a particular fundamental is not a universal rule. Different singers cue on different aspects of their own voice.
Some non-open fit Hearing aids can provide too much fundamental from the voice - not because of the sound coming into the hearing aid, but because of the occlusion effect of bone conducted sound that gets trapped between the eardrum and the hearing aid. One's brain does not normally hear so much fundamental frequency. In fact, what you hear/perceive from your own voice is not necessarily fundamental driven.
You can try this yourself - put well-sealing earplugs in your ears and try to speak/sing. You'll note that your hearing system can get swamped by 'bass'. This is one reason why you see many well-trained studio vocalists removing an earcup of a non-occluding headphone and putting their hand up to the 'naked' side - to feed more of those mids and highs back to the ear. I know that this works for me. Research 'phantom pitch' online to get some understanding of the phenomenon of perceived pitch, and how it is not nearly as simple as just resolving the fundamental.
In the in-ear monitor world for singers, one of the key aspects of them working properly is to get the proper balance of mid and higher frequencies presented back into the ear, to sound natural for the singer. This is true for folks with normal hearing. With various types of hearing loss, this becomes even trickier because of the brain's attempted adaption to the hearing loss over time.
Ian, we've discussed the possibility of a customized headphone listening setup - not unlike Mac's suggestion and not unlike what is suggested in the article. If your hearing aids are not well-vented, try taking them out. You'll need to boost mids and highs with a graphic EQ to make up for the aids, but at least you'll have tunability. But it might overcome some of that occlusion effect and give you back some of the 'air' that your brain needs to hear to help sing on pitch.
-Scott
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My Dad is 83.
When we were kids at the Baptist Church 7 of us lined up along the pew. People fled Dad, he sang so off key you couldn't stand to be near him.
He went partially deaf a couple of years ago.
Now he keeps the hymn book at home, opens it to a page, refreshes the words and wanders around the apt. without his hearing aids and sings in perfect key. My Mother says it's a miracle. I think he needed to plug an ear all his life.
Weird.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Keith - you're the only one who noticed the very bad pun - on the other hand it's so bad, maybe it's being ignored. Scott - I didn't intend for this to erupt into a hearing thread - but hearing loss and pitch drift/correction are really intertwined. Since we last spoke I have been giving some digital H-aids a drive. After changing audiologists because my own would not implement the info in the link I provided here because she "didn't have time", I'm going to another one for just that purpose in a week's time. Then the frequencies in the on-board music program will be as well balanced as my hearing will allow - no boost for speech, no feedback control, no compressing, no limiting. These aids are Siemens Nitros FYI. Then maybe I'll have a more accurate "audio" picture of my music hearing capabilities viz recording. I hadn't forgotten you down there in Colorado. Ian
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Ian, as today's Financial Post pointed out puns are at times to be ignored.
The lowest or the highest form of humour. Sometimes a shudder and a wink are all that are needed.
Spend an hour and think about rafting on the Ottawa. As as old a river driver as exists I sure do miss the boats, the booms and the logs. Lots of songs in there me laddie. I worked the Groundhog, the Kap the White Otter the Black and the Pic on drives. Somedays I wish I was still there.
I'm sure the woodstove and the cabin are getting a workout next week, I'm counting on a good time. Colline de beans.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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The same thing happens with the backing tracks when I record - too much info and I lose pitch - I do better if I record with simple backing and percussion. I also get more pitch information listening to my bookshelf speakers while recording, less info using headphones.
i've had a certain amount of success with children and amateur singers by doing the following:
*I create a MIDI file of just the Melody notes, using a Patch that is easy for them to hear and is typically a Pad patch instead of a Piano or hammered instrument.
*This is a temporary guide track. Therefore I can turn it up as high as need be, within the limits of the monitoring machinery. If I need even more, I've converted the MIDI guide track to Audio track and then applied Compressor plugin. In your case I'd suggest a MultiBand Compressor plugin. Perhaps even an instance of EQ plugin after it. Whatever it takes to get those guide notes to work for you so you can sing the part.
And after doing that, it might still be necessary to apply an instance of Autotune or the more affordable GSnap to the track or parts of the track, but the whole idea is that the closer you can get to the pitch before having to apply the algorithm, the less machine-like the application can sound.
Making the MIDI track is an easy job for a keyboardist, I simply record it in MIDI. Don't see any reason why the nonkeyboardist couldn't do this with keyboard or mouse-entry notation or even the pianoroll, though.
I don't know if this can work in your particular instance, but I do think it is certainly worth a shot or two. This kind of thing takes a bit of development time, iron out the rough edges, etc. Or it may not work at all. I think it has merit for you to try, though.
--Mac
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Hi Mac This is a great idea and I don't see why I couldn't make it work. I can input midi thru my guitar controller and add the voice you suggest. Taking it a step further from just a melody line, I can even do a midi track of arpeggiated guitar strings (bottom 4) at the song's chord changes. Might help by giving me more harmonic info - not too spread out - maybe eighth notes - which would make it easier to focus my pitch. The next thing is then selecting the ideal voice - nylon guitar is mellower or as you suggest a pad that will work with the eighth notes. I often reference my guitar in this way, so it should work in the midi format, and I can definitely see benefits in wav conversion and use of compression and futher eq if necessary. Now if I can just google a headphone setup with 10-Band eqs on each stereo channel then I may have given myself a fighting chance with my current level of hearing . . . for a few more years yet. The goal as you say is reducing the amount of pitch drift in the initial recording. Looks like I've got a project for the weekend. . . and then some Good stuff - thanks for the input. Ian
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Ian, I don’t know if this will work for you or not but maybe you can have two identical mono tracks panned hard left and right then use one of these free EQ’s and use them with your current headphones. You could run an serperate EQ on each track and have it "tuned" to your ear. I hope this helps and good luck.
Back in my day the only time we started panic buying was when the bartender shouted "last call"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Don't know what the scene is like where you are at, but the Thrift Shops, Pawn Shops, Garage Sales, etc. around here often have great deals on used stereo Graphic EQs that have separate controls for each channel.
That plus a small stereo integrated amplifier or receiver to yield an amp and headphone jack and you may be able to piece together a monitoring system that you can tune to your needs without breaking the bank. Add a pair of headphones and you would have EQ control, plenty enough power, even the Tone and Loudness and Pan controls on that stereo to help if needed.
Those EQs often work right away, or may need a spritz of deoxit cleaner lube into each slot to clean the controls and will work again for another ten years. Same goes for a lot of the used stereo systems as well. And the prices are very nice indeed. I've seen lots of those kind of EQs of various brands at the 10 to 20 dollar mark this past summer. People are getting rid of their stereo systems and stuff in favor of the newer Video Receivers, it seems.
--Mac
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+1 to the graphic EQ suggestion - try to get one with as many bands as possible. Your Audiogram is likely only octave bands, and it's very possible you have some notches that are more narrow than octave bands - so experiment with the individual sliders. I really would advise you to think about putting a limiter of some kind on the output, just so that you don't damage your ears even more.
If you need more gain in a band, consider buying 2 of the graphic eqs and run them in series.
-Scott
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Quote:
If you need more gain in a band, consider buying 2 of the graphic eqs and run them in series.
-Scott
If it is just one band, using the EQ before a stereo amp or receiver, you could simply turn up the big knob on the receiver and accomplish the same result, boosted gain at that frequency band.
--Mac
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Mac, that's true.
However, Ian sent me his audiogram back several months ago, and he does also have some broad-band loss that the other bands will help to accommodate. I don't remember the shape of the audiogram very specifically. The problem with audiologist audiometry, however, is that the audiograms are done on an octave basis for the most part. There could be some notches at a more narrow resolution than octave band. Part of this is for efficacy of getting the audiogram done, as well as also somewhat a limitation on what the EQ/filtering is capable of in the hearing aid.
Most likely a single graphic EQ will do - those that I've used have generally 24 dB of range (+/-12 dB). Where he has no, or relatively flat loss, he can set those at -12 dB, and then go up from there as necessary, up to a 24 dB difference from where it's 'flat'. Then the big gain knob can make up for the 'flat' quite easily.
-Scott
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Quote:
Most likely a single graphic EQ will do - those that I've used have generally 24 dB of range (+/-12 dB). Where he has no, or relatively flat loss, he can set those at -12 dB, and then go up from there as necessary, up to a 24 dB difference from where it's 'flat'. Then the big gain knob can make up for the 'flat' quite easily.
Well, my point, which I didn't really go into, is that one can easily get into the situation where the amplification from the first EQ would be already overdriving the input of the second EQ into clipping at that point. Most of the EQs one is likely to find used from home stereo use are going to be active electronics. A lot of them boost or cut +/-15 dB instead of 12 as well. At that point, we are talking a possible 30dB increase in amplitude at the end of this chain, which would likely be overdriving the standard consumer line input considerably.
And clipping, or flat-topping of the wave should be avoided because it will, like a square wave, start to generate close to infinite odd-order harmonics, which I think would likely make hearing the fundamental that much more difficult. I don't think we need a harmonic-rich environment here. And it could easily be a situation where he will not be able to detect clipping happening unless and until it reaches the point of disaster.
Even a pair of the legendary Klark-Teknik (sp?) passive Graphic EQs would likely have a time of it when cascaded like that, although I should think they'd be less susceptible than the less expensive active EQs.
I think that Filter Ringing would also rear its ugly head kind of quickly.
--Mac
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John - Financial Post?!What would they know about humour? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Nothing there is a laughing matter, except some of the theories may be a joke. The dams stopped the logging - no more in Ottawa. Just the deadheads - in the river and on the Hill. Apologies guys - local joke. Ian
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Thanks Mario
I need to take some time and think this through. EQ needs to be isolated - one for each ear on the stereo output I use for mixing. My interface is a Tascam Portastudio 488 which should enable me to isolate the L & R to their own channel complete with multiband equing and a direct headphone output.
We'll see.
Ian
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Scott, Mac I wish I had waded into this yesterday - what alot of good info. I'm adding to my paper files. Check my response to Mario, I have a Tascam Portastudio 488 which I use as my interface. There is multiband equing (not an ideally as many bands as I'd like, but it can accommodate external units if I can find 'em cheap. My current audiograms Left Ear Right Ear The environment I need frequency-wise should be primarily flat inspite of the required db levels for each freq. band. Upper peak limiter set at 120db set to protect remaining hearing. But you'll be able to see that in the audiograms. Ideally I would be better off with more than octave banding. My hearing aids only have 8 (120-6500) but only octave. Notice the drop from 500 to 1000, all the frequencies in between do not fade away in a steep straight line - I could be fairly level from 500 to 900. Maybe 31 band units can fill in some spaces if they could be found. I even have a couple of software 31 banders but it is figuring how to put this stuff together that is the challenge. (On hearing aids, there can be 16 bands but those are hellishly expensive.) Some of my frequencies will not have a very dynamic range.  I hope some of above is helpful. I am grateful you fellows are out there. Ian
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OK, here's another point of view, and it may seem off the wall at first, but anyway .. Get a reference CD. Something you know well, maybe even historically that you remember. Set up an EQ and spend a few days using that EQ to get things sounding to where that reference CD (and maybe a few of them) sounds good to you. Then try some other CD's and see if they sound better. Once you make the needed adjustments, save those settings somehow. Either as a preset for an EQ in your master out section, or on a physical EQ somehow. Use it when you record/mix/master. I say this because of this experience I have had- I had a few audiograms done over a short period of time. My hearing was being tested for a job I had applied to, so it was all free to me  There was quite a bit of variance between the first one and the next couple. So if you base your adjustments to an audiogram done one time on a given day, they may be off. I saw this with my own testing so thought I would mention the possibility. Anything from pollen in the air to fighting off a sickness can severely affect our hearing and we don't notice it. That's another reason why it's important to put a piece down for a couple days and revisit before declaring it done. You need to be confident that what you are hearing is consistant, so spend some time doing it. But take take your time doing it 
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Hi Bob I would have to use the reference CD two ways as I see it: 1) With Hearing Aids - through a properly adjusted hearing aid internal audio program - as per the suggestion of the link article I provided way back - each eq band as level as possible with the next octave 2) Without Hearing Aids - remove the aids and try to set up a set of headphones as suggested by Scott and Mac and Mario - with independent equalizers on each of the L & R lines of the phones replacing the hearing aid internal adjustment program. Then apply the reference CD through both these methods. Two years ago when my loss was moderate to severe I was getting by no problem. But it is a whole different story at severe to profound. But it is doable, it's just that the available adjustment range will make it more challenging. Fortunately most of PG's RTs RDs are pretty well eq'd, as are most hardware midi voices. My major problem is getting enough melodic information from the backing tracks so that I can sing on key. I think I can do credible sounding demos if I can solve the voice. Reminds me of the old joke . . . Will I be able to play the fiddle after surgery doctor? Yes? What a relief . . . I never could before. Will I be able to sing after all of this setup? What a relief . . . Thanks for the thoughts - Ian
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Ian, I'm just curious - what does your audiologist theorize is the reason for the large differences in your audiograms? You left ear is a classic shape, but the right ear really perplexes me why the low frequencies are where you show most loss - that's not very typical.
Bob's idea has merit to get your EQ set in conjunction with attempting to correct for the losses shown in your audiograms. Keep in mind that your brain learns what the 'new normal' is over time, so getting as flat a response may not be what is necessary for your ability to sing on pitch.
Do you have access to some good over the ear phones with lots of dynamic range? You could give a first try with the Tascam - but it's going to be more limited than an outboard setup.
Mac - good point about overdriving and filter ringing.
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Hi Scott
My ENT specialist has no idea why that drop at 500 - makes working with root frequencies difficult - not much range available. I've had every diagnostic test plus an MRI. Only theories. May have something to do with my negligible balance capabilities . . . only about 20 % in one of the ears - trying to remember which one. About two years ago the drop to 90db occurred suddenly, almost overnight.
Dizzy for a day or two and then gone. No way to really examine the cochlea and find out what's going on.
My left ear has always been the stronger. It's better positioned frequency-wise to give me the melodic info I need for recording my voice - not very good for speech though.
I have a question about Westone ITEs- are the on-board speakers the same as Hearing Aid speakers? One or two companies make all? I'm also supposing that the ITEs carry a broader range of frequencies because, unlike HAids, their sound source is NOT a pin-head microphone. I'm also going to assume that the ITEs, unlike HAids, do not have on-board adjustable frequency chips, and that most of the frequency adjustment takes place before the sound comes to the ITEs.
I'm trying to figure out here if technically such a setup with ITEs would work for me.
My headphones are Radio Shack 15 years ago variety which cover the ear. They will have to be replaced.
Ian
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