I'm a long-time user of BiaB, although my skills are still pretty basic compared to what there is to know.
My question is about the Piano Roll: Are there people out there who use it to write melodies? Or is it mainly meant to give a visual report of what's going on with pitch, duration, etc?
In other words, can a composer use the Piano Roll as a substitute for a MIDI keyboard?
For confidence motivation, check out the midi creations of David Barnes Beatle cover songs. He created very accurate covers using a mouse to note by note entry of each instrument of a song individually. According to his web site, each song took weeks to complete.
Although the Beatle songs are covers, original compositions can be done the same way.
For confidence motivation, check out the midi creations of David Barnes Beatle cover songs. He created very accurate covers using a mouse to note by note entry of each instrument of a song individually. According to his web site, each song took weeks to complete.
Although the Beatle songs are covers, original compositions can be done the same way.
Charlie, I can see where those songs would take at least a week to complete. The results are extremely impressive. I would never had guessed how he inputted those tracks.
Thanx for sharing.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I'm not a keyboard player and am not melodically inclined so the piano roll midi set up helps me to create melody, counter melody and arrangements with a lot of visual, as well as point n click, assistance.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Thank you, Ray. Since you're an experienced user of the Piano Roll, I'll describe my current situation and ask a true beginner's question:
I typed in a few random chords, changed to the Piano Roll view, and then grabbed various notes, moving the bars up and down.
When I hit the play button, however, I hear the same progression that I originally typed in, as if I had not changed any of the notes in Piano Roll. I DID hear the changed pitches when I moved the bars, but playback gives me an unchanged progression -- even though I can see the bars light up in their changed heights.
What am I not understanding about playback in the Piano Roll?
The piano roll will display and allow editing of RealCharts all day without altering the progression that plays.
Be sure you are editing an instrument media format that reads and plays midi. Although RealCharts are midi and editable, their function in BIAB is notation, tab and Piano Roll display. They are underlying midi data of RealTracks, Artist Performance Files and Audio that doesn't natively produce sound.
... When I hit the play button, however, I hear the same progression that I originally typed in, as if I had not changed any of the notes in Piano Roll. I DID hear the changed pitches when I moved the bars, but playback gives me an unchanged progression -- even though I can see the bars light up in their changed heights.
What am I not understanding about playback in the Piano Roll?
Is the track frozen? Is it a true MIDI track (yellow) or a MIDI Super Track (pale blue)?
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Is the track frozen? Is it a true MIDI track (yellow) or a MIDI Super Track (pale blue)?
Even if the track is frozen I can still hear the changes I make in the Piano Roll View. I froze the track then made my changes. In another test I made the changes then froze the track. In both cases I heard my MIDI changes. I tried with both super MIDI tracks and regular MIDI track. I was using the play button.
I can get the identical results as he does IF I hit the regenerate play button.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
See my post to Noel. I can duplicate your problem if I click on the regenerate play button (#1 in pic) I can eliminate your problem if I click on the play button (#2)
Which button are you using?
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Mario, good points. As long as the song has at least been generated once previously, then the play button should only play the latest changes, whereas the generate button has a much larger interaction. Thanks for clarifying.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Charlie's most recent post may be a key here, and also AudioTrack's question about track colours.
The MIDI shown for RealTracks is not the source of the sound, they're a transcription of what's played by the RealTrack, which is audio. If the tracks as seen in the mixer are green, then the piano-roll data is for information only, unless you switch a section to "Playable RealTracks". Try this video if you want to use that 2022 onwards: Using Playable RealTracks). It's value for composing is doubtful, IMHO ... probably better to use MIDI tracks.
If the track is yellow, then it's definitely MIDI and editing should work (unless the track is frozen). I think that's also true of MIDI Super Tracks.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Charlie's most recent post may be a key here, and also AudioTrack's question about track colours.
The MIDI shown for RealTracks is not the source of the sound, they're a transcription of what's played by the RealTrack, which is audio. If the tracks as seen in the mixer are green, then the piano-roll data is for information only, unless you switch a section to "Playable RealTracks". Try this video if you want to use that 2022 onwards: Using Playable RealTracks). It's value for composing is doubtful, IMHO ... probably better to use MIDI tracks.
If the track is yellow, then it's definitely MIDI and editing should work (unless the track is frozen). I think that's also true of MIDI Super Tracks.
Gordon is right. My previous tests were with MIDI and MIDI Super Tracks: yes Gordon editing works in both cases. I just tried a test with RTs and the MIDI editing does not work.
OP, if you want to modify RT notes you must drag and drop the RT as MIDI into a DAW, if you have a Window machine you have one in RealBand. In the DAW you can make your changes and assign a MIDI sound source to your track; I do that all of the time. Note it may not sound like the original RT but with a good sound source and a little MIDI knowledge you can come very close.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Wow -- so interesting. 'Ya learn something everyday. Or I did anyway. I now see that the Piano Roll works fine as long I'm editing MIDI material. I don't know why that wasn't obvious to me from the very beginning... but, alas, it wasn't. Many thanks to all of you for your comments and guidance. I'm really looking forward to using my newly-found MIDI editing tool.
debitspread, you may wish to mark your original post as "resolved" to officially close the thread.
If you absolutely HAVE to modify a RealTrack, a pricey solution is to export that track to .WAV and load the .WAV into Melodyne Studio. It uses a piano roll style format to edit each sound "blob" in a polyphonic source. From Melodyne it goes into my DAW. I've found this workflow completely effective in addressing many of my more complex RealTrack editing needs.
Good luck!
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
Wow -- so interesting. 'Ya learn something everyday. Or I did anyway. I now see that the Piano Roll works fine as long I'm editing MIDI material. I don't know why that wasn't obvious to me from the very beginning... but, alas, it wasn't. Many thanks to all of you for your comments and guidance. I'm really looking forward to using my newly-found MIDI editing tool.
It isn't really obvious and you're very far from the first person to not realise it.
As DC Ron says, Melodyne can be used to tweak things after generation. "Playable Real Tracks" can be used for segments within the RealTrack, but that's really intended for small treaks ... it actually switches for those tweaks from the RT audio to sforzando and samples from the RT file, then back to RT audio. If you want to control the whole track, though, MIDI and VSTi is probably the best way to go.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Yes, I write melodies using the piano roll window. Will often create a melody in Band in a box, port it over to my DAW (Logic Pro 11). After so many years, I find it faster to rewrite/spruce up the BIAB melody on a piano roll.. You can copy melody phrases to a different section and make subtle changes to accommodate the current chords. Now I can do it without any assistance. Years ago, I would do a BIAB version of the song with the 'hymn' style. and export that MIDI into Logic. The notes in this MIDI file are blocked out for the full chord length. I copy the chords and paste them several octaves higher and lower than the original position. I mute and shorten them. and display these and the current BIAB melody. This makes it easier to know which important notes to put on one current chord note.
You can add passing tones, I often do them on the 'ands' of notes in 8ths or 16ths. Make them shorter and lower the velocity so they don't get so much attention. You can also move the melody notes to 6th, 7th, 9ths, 13, diminished for extra spice occasionally.. After a while, it becomes 2nd nature. After many years of playing, I don't bother with the guide reference notes. My ear/hand puts the note in the right place. The vast majority of the time I get it right. Sometimes I have to slide the note around.
Now also it is a good time to fool around with syncopation. Slide some notes forward backward to make the melody more interesting.
A great tip I discovered, was an old John Lennon work cassette. He woujld take the powerpoint or important notes in a 6 or 8 note melody, and sing that note in all musically available intervals.. Some of the examples he worked on, ending up in some of this best hits. Sometimes you want to move the important melody note higher. There are 'power positions' for certain notes, you want to experiment where you place them on the scale. Hope this helps
Thanks Mark! There’s some interesting ideas in your post. I am a guitarist teaching myself keys so I can add a riff or lick here or there in my songs. I usually have a go at playing a section on keys, then I go to the piano roll in my DAW to tidy it up, which usually involves time-shifting the odd note or removing errant key touches, then as you say, copying the section to other parts.
I hadn’t heard the Lennon PowerPoint story before, but sounds like a useful tool to look for a nice touch to a melody. It fits with advice I’ve read elsewhere about distinctive melodies containing more interval jumps/drops - a distinction between McCartney and Lennon - the former’s melodies using more interval jumps while the latter tended to use melodies with minimal interval movement underpinned by harmonic development with chord progressions (generalisations but some truth to it).
< "Playable Real Tracks" can be used for segments within the RealTrack, but that's really intended for small treaks ... >
I've found these small tweaks to be as authentic as editing with Melodyne and much faster. In the mix, Playable Real Tracks, done correctly, could be used in a commercial recording. In many cases, the edited notes are sampled during the original session RealTracks recordings by the actual session musician with the actual session instruments in the same recording environment with the same instrument settings. For the RealTracks that haven't yet had the actual instrument sampled, PG staff have researched and selected the best match sample for that track instrument.
Also note that PRT sound plug-ins can be changed from the PRT assigned sound. RealCharts can be edited, overwritten with any midi data transcription and played with the PRT samples or changed to another VST.
Playable RealTracks are more powerful and versatile than seems to be recognized in recent discussions here in the forum.
Attached screenshot shows the Playable RealTrack guitar data using CoyoteWT organ sound.
Here's a link showing PG Music staff demonstrating the Playable RealTrack concept back on 05/11/2011.
The update in 2022 to Playable RealTracks allows the editing to be on a single track in the Mixer. While this doesn't completely allow total editing of RealTracks creating custom phrasing of a RealTrack, there are many, many instances amazing results can be obtained for those that understand audio and midi programming and editing.
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Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
Playable RealTracks Set 4
RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
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Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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