The fact is that the state of the art is pretty good except at the bottom end where cheap components, feedback circuits and zero quality control still rules.
That is entirely the difference between an actual pro microphone and a "cheap but good" microphone. You pay for the quality control - cheap capsules are all over the place in terms of response, be it frequency, transient, noise, etc. You also pay for having the circuitry designed specifically for the capsule - you mention feedback so you likely know what I'm talking about, but for everyone else:
Most cheap microphones are built the same way. Iirc lots of them knock off the Neumann style of capsule (which on its own has a significant boost in the 4khz-ish range) and typically paired it with circuitry that had a negative feedback loop to tame the high frequency response - except the clones didn't bother cloning the appropriate Neumann circuitry in an attempt to use fewer components. Without the negative feedback, even a "good" capsule would end up sounding unnaturally bright and can often distort the treble range, which to an untrained ear can sound "detailed" as it picks up a lot of stuff your ears don't necessarily catch.
for lots of song creators with no money something is better than nothing. i once set up a studio for a group of musos with no money to help them. (CDN fyi) i told them 'this isnt the best gear you realise ?' but they were very appreciative as finally they had 'something' as a starter to create songs.
in fact on gearspace.com is a whole forum called 'low end theory' which offers loads of interesting threads on affordeable gear. the question is how big a gap is there tween spending over 1k on a mic viz a mic under 100 bucks. and of course there are many audio examples of this comparison (cheap versus expensive) on you tube of course.
its like anything else in life...just gotta sort the wheat from the chaff. (it took me a looong time to find my nice wife for example. my song in my sig 'a man and a woman' tells the tale...lol includeing a little joke bass run.) yes there is junk gear out there not worth the low price but there is also good gear at a low price imho.
here is a link to a sweetwater shootout with audio examples of various audio interfaces. i said to my wife can you hear the diff ? her reply...'all sounds the same to me'....lol.
as ive said before ive used big boys gear many timews ...but ive also had nice results from cheapo gear many times.. (some pg users use behr interfaces and some rme. i havent yet had someone be able to tell the mic diffs on my various songs vocs.)
you and mike make good points and they are the reason i record tracks and listen back a la the sweetwater audio examples method. ie 'proof in the pudding'. listen to the femme vocs video upthread useing the dirt cheap isk 'little gem' mic. amazeing AMAZEING femme vocs on a religious song. 50 buks for the mic. i cant even get one to test as they are sold out.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/14/2507:46 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
for lots of song creators with no money something is better than nothing.
I fully agree.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
the question is how big a gap is there tween spending over 1k on a mic viz a mic under 100 bucks.
It depends. Think of it this way - if you have five of a 1k mic, how much difference is there between each one? Likely not much. Similarly if you have five of a sub-$100 mic how much difference? Likely quite a lot - I've had cheap "matched" mics that didn't remotely sound the same. If you compare the best of the cheap mics to any of the expensive mics, yeah there might not be much difference, but what if you compare the worst one... My point is that - with cheap mics (and cheap gear in general) someone might watch or listen to a demo of a particularly good example and decide to buy it, then struggle to get the same results as they ended up with a rather poor one. And as well, you might find a cheap mic is usable on fewer sources - it might sound great only on female vocals but terrible on anything else, while an expensive mic might sound great on anything. I've yet to find anything that sounds bad on my SM7B or AT4050...
Consistency is why you pay 1k or more and why you see the big names in big studios.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
as ive said before ive used big boys gear many timews ...but ive also had nice results from cheapo gear many times.. (some pg users use behr interfaces and some rme.
Likewise, but I've often been lucky - and I used to work at the shop, so I could try things out extensively before buying them.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
i havent yet had someone be able to tell the mic diffs on my various songs vocs.)
I have - in the producer circles I run in I've had people pick out "hey you're using a different mic" quite a few times. They can't necessarily tell me what it is, but they can easily tell that it's different than on a previous track.
im still knocked out by the female religious vocal useing the cheap isk mic. totally wonderfull vocs imho. i dont see how that could be improved..
you should peruse sometime for s's and giggles some of the gear comparisons on gearspace.com. whetber mics or mic pre's. there are legendary threads with AE's with many different opinions to each other. its like some blokes like truck A and another bloke truck B... and never will the twain meet.
happiness.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
as can be seen there are lots of different opinions and suggestions from experienced audio engineers.
i hope someone finds it interesting. it runs the whole gamut.
lots of other interesting gear shootouts on gearspace. for someone with little money the low end theory forum is interesting.
perhaps pg users might suggest microphones they use for that 'secret sauce' lol. i'm sure new users to project studios might find it interesting.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/16/2506:26 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
perhaps pg users might suggest microphones they use for that 'secret sauce' lol.
For our RealTracks, it entirely depends on whether the RT was recorded by us directly or by the RealTrack artist - often the artist is remote relative to us, and they use whatever microphone they have. When it's an RT recorded by us directly, I believe it's more often an SM57 than anything else. Certainly they're used a lot on drums, particularly snare and toms. That said, with nearly 5000 RealTracks and RealDrums spanning 18 years, it's impossible to say what was used on any one of them.
ive used 57's for donkey ages. its a very VERY old one. ive used it on vocs on many different songs. good mic. but imho there are better alternatives these days as the market is flooded with mics. its hard to keep up...lol.
check out these CAD mics sometimes... CAD has a good rep from what ive seen over the years. eg M179. see the net for audio tests etc etc.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
My needs as a horn player are likely different from most here, but I use a Royer 121 ribbon for recording. Nothing else gives me the combination of warmth and clarity in the sound that I want. Yes, I've played into just about everything in various studios and stages.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
just in case you ever do a gig that could get raucos and dont want to chance the nice royer...here are some alternatives i find might be interesting options from cheap to expensive.
i was surprised at the number of competitors... ribbons are great but one needs to be careful in how one handles them.
heres femme vocs on cheap mxl ribbon. sounds pretty good to me...whaddya think ??
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/24/2505:34 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
I have a small collection of ribbons. All tools in the cabinet. My Shure 315 is the ultimate upright bass mic, IMO, always with a Cloudlifter CL-Z like all of my dynamic mics <500Ω. The variable resister lets me tune the low end and transient response.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScore/Notion/Overture
In case anyone is interested, this is what I use in live concerts. It’s a Shure, built like a tank similar to the ubiquitous SM 58, reduces harshness on my horns, and is great at reducing feedback.
In case anyone is interested, this is what I use in live concerts. It’s a Shure, built like a tank similar to the ubiquitous SM 58, reduces harshness on my horns, and is great at reducing feedback.
I've not used my SM57/58s in years. I only keep them around for the "we all use our 58s. Please bring one so that you match." gigs that I used to have before 2020.
They were state of the art 60 years ago but time has passed them by. The basic design is good but the output impedance should have changed in the 1970s when inexpensive FET PAs came into being. Have you ever read this? SM57 Impedance
The Gizmo mentioned is easy to make and I'll put a new batch on Reverb now and then that sell out quickly. I prefer using a 1kW variable resistor in a box that allows me to tune the low end and alter the transient response—think of it as a Cloudlifter CL-Z without the boost.
That Shure KSM8 you linked to does look nice. I've been using AKG dynamics since 2008. The Varimotion diaphragms and 600Ω output made a noticeable improvement in my live sound—and all my bandmates noticed. Only downside is that one can tell when a vocalist is mumbling because he/she forgot the words.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScore/Notion/Overture
ive used 57's for donkey ages. its a very VERY old one. ive used it on vocs on many different songs. good mic. but imho there are better alternatives these days as the market is flooded with mics. its hard to keep up...lol.
check out these CAD mics sometimes... CAD has a good rep from what ive seen over the years. eg M179. see the net for audio tests etc etc.
Better perhaps, but again the key for me is consistency and expectation - we all know exactly how a 57 sounds, and a 57 is something that generally "works" either live or when recording, meaning it's easier and faster to get the sound we want. Same can be said for other big name mics.
Same can be said of anything really. I tend to buy Thinkpad laptops for my rare PC use, not because they're objectively "better" than anything else out there (their specs are often lower than other brands at the same price), but because I know what to expect. I know how their keyboards feel, how the mouse nub works, etc, and I know exactly what kind of abuse it can handle. Same with cars, I sold my BMW to get a Toyota because the objectively "better" BMW couldn't handle my scenario.
I've owned some CAD microphones. Sold or gave away all of them, as I did with quite a number of other mics. It's not that they were objectively bad, it's because they weren't reliably good enough on a variety of sources, meaning it was difficult to regularly find a place where I wanted to use them over anything else I have.
Originally Posted by Matt Finley
Yep, I wouldn’t use that Royer on a gig.
Lol neither would I, don't think I'd ever use a ribbon on stage, or any mic of that price level. But then again, the kind of gigs I do....
Originally Posted by Matt Finley
Shute VAI-58, now with AI. Helps you remember the words.
Except possibly the wrong words, or with words added or removed.
when i was very very young in the uk...i was stupid and into 'flash cars'...lol. learnt my lesson. cars...my downfall...lol.
now like you ive got a toyota. darn thing is boring but reliable as heck. got a deal on it when new....had it now 12 years...amazed.
as to cad mics...mostly ive been told good things. i get the point about consistency...but i'm a rock n roll renegade...lmao. i love to see what i can squeeze outta cheap gear for s's n giggles. looking at a cheap 20 buck mic right now...i might set up a challenge with it and an expensive mic of mine..lol.
just wanna mention a rb mic idea... pg has a great (but sometimes quirky) unique daw product there. love it...i urge pg to just sand off a few edges and take the market. would be nice to see a mic emulation plugin built into rb. (also basic what i would call a 'make this track sound better plugin'..lol..)...ie USEFULL AI... i'm sure this would generate some excitement...particularly amongst poor people who cant afford expensive plugins. most of the AI stuff i look at doesnt really float my boat frankly...but its obvious pg should add more AI features...usefull features i find exciting. imho there is a big 'hole' in the music app market that pg could take advantage of . ie build into its products AI and other features that poor musicians might have to pay for normally...
happiness.
(from a looney loving rock ex tech product mgr..)
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 05/29/2505:20 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
soooo...ive got a el cheapo mic from amazon coming just to see how far the mic tech has come costing peanuts compared to fancy shmancy mics ive used over the years. maybe i'll do a mic test shootout to see if people can tell the diff from a mic thats been used on zillions of songs by studios.
in my studying the mic market it would seem the usb technology seems to have really advanced significantly. i'm seeing lots of mics that have not just usb but also xlr connectors. and several with 192/24 bit support....eg...
it looks like the above has garnered awards. its difficult to keep up...lol.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 06/11/2507:09 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
I forgot about these. My ART mic pres had variable impedance but were a little noisy for my taste. I expect that they’re using quieter ICs by now. Although you can make one for a little less, $80 is about 1/3 the price of a CL-Z. Why they use a 10kΩ variable resistor instead of 1kΩ like the CL-Z is a mystery to me but it just means that the useable sweep is in the first 10% of the dial.
No reason for these if your dynamic has a 600Ω output like AKG and Sennheiser dynamics but use one on an SM57/58/7/545 etc. and it makes a huge difference. Tuning the low frequency response by ear is very easy.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScore/Notion/Overture
so the past few weeks ive been really delving into the world of usb mics further. and i think it was Charlie Fogle who said awhile back that usb mic tech has improved...correct me if i'm wrong. i wasnt aware how far actually and how fast the tech has moved. for example various manufacturers offering mics that have...
..usb AND xlr connectors which is kinda handy for flexibility. ..192/24 bit support. ..some coming with some apps for eg comp/lim/gate etc and overload protection. ..pop filters ..zero latency monitoring. and so on...
so i think i'm gonna test out one and compare it to a studio staple mic used by studios all over the world for donkeys ages.
bottom line imho this mic tech is moving fast. if any pg user is useing one of the latest generation of usb/xlr mics... feel free to comment.
happiness.
om
ps Mike re those Art mic pres. yep if you look at you tube there are various mods for them includeing changeing tubes. also gearspace.com has various threads.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 06/17/2501:29 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
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