PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic This Is Your Brain on Music

Unfortunately music does not bring in the money that sports do in higher ed, so sports will always win out ($$).
That battle has already been lost
But music is important. It needs to stay too. As evidenced by this thread and many studies ...

This is great man!
Must be rewarding to see those old folks light up when you play for them.
Sounds like a great application for BiaB, all you really need is some vocals and you've got a complete live band.

But what does sports have to do with education?

And elderly people having pains and difficulties because of a sports accident in school is so common that it is a common trope in TV, Movie, and Book fiction.

Any school that makes its money with sports, and where the coach gets paid more than the other teachers, is simply a sports franchise with a side hack of educating kids.

Thanks to music education, I'm making a living doing what I love to do, instead of punching a clock and being a wage-slave for some overpaid corporate head.

Sorry for the rant.

I totally agree with your rant Notes, which one possible exception. I'm not sure they are educating kids.

You've got a good point there.

My mom passed last month.
In one of the opening events tonight for NAMM she is included in the 'in memory' part.
For her contributions to music education.

// Miss ya mom, you done good

I just bring this up to
A. honor her
B. reinforce how important music is in education

Hope to have a link shortly. I was just notified and it takes longer to fly there than I have before the event.

https://www.namm.org/library/oral-history/namm-industry-tribute-2026

I agree that we need to keep and even increase music in our (US) K-12 schools. Personally, I had next to none in school and none as an adult. It would be interesting to hear from folks in Canada, Europe or Australia on this subject from their school perspective.

The problem is that there are only so many hours in a school day and so many school days in a year. Imho we also need to prioritize, STEM, history, civics, language and critical thinking skills so that youngsters are prepared for jobs, careers and citizenship in the 21st century, beyond just music.

Care to share your essay?

Levitin doesn’t spend a lot of time on music “education” per-se but he does say:

Many of the greatest musicians of our era lacked formal training, including Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Wonder and Joni Mitchell. And in classical music, George Gershwin, Mussorgsky and David Helfgott are among those who lacked formal training, and Beethoven considered his own training to have been poor according to his diaries.

Eh, I've shared it here before.
Ain't nothing to brag about

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=864977#Post864977

In the UK, music is certainly still on the curriculum, though how well it's handled is another matter.
In my school days, ~60 years ago now, music was also on the curriculum. In elementary school I learned the note lengths & names(*) and played the occasional 'ting' on a triangle. When I started high school we listened to The Beatles, but I don't remember being taught anything. I specialised then in mechanical engineering, which is a pretty big and complex subject, and too make the time for that I progressively had to drop other subjects. Music was an early one to go.

My parents weren't musical; my grandfather was a piano tuner and played piano by ear. He wouldn't teach me because "that's not the right way to learn the piano". So I pretty much had no music education until I was 58 and started piano lessons. Frankly, I still struggle with music.

IMHO, anyone with a musical skill who has children, right from pre-toddler, should expose them to music encourage participation, but not force them.

It can be pretty hard otherwise.

IMHO if you take all of the musicians in an orchestra, pit bands, bands backing TV shows, etc I would bet that those who made it with no formal training is a small minority. Plus of those whom you listed I'll bet some can read music so they did have some formal training.

https://www.louisarmstronghouse.org/faq/could-louis-armstrong-read-music/
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/song-joni-mitchell-relearn-piano-david-crosby/

I guess the real question is what does one consider as formal training. Lessons on a instrument? A college degree?

When I was teaching theory to my guitar and bass students I stressed learn theory but don't let it dictate your playing. Learn theory to enhance your skill bass (scales, how chords are formed,etc) and to analyze what you played but always play from your heart. YMMV

"Greatest musicians" according to what standard?

I think he's conflating "popular" with "greatest".

I recall reading an anecdote by Leonard Bernstein, where his publisher was complaining that no one was leaving his musicals "whistling his tunes", and thus not buying sheet music. So Lenny sat down with his librettist to write a something simple and memorable. At the end of the exercise, he had nothing except a new-found respect for people who created popular music. It's not as easy as it seems.

That said, let's break down that lack of "formal training". Mind, you, I'm relying on AI summaries, so there could be errors, but unlike Letvin, I actually did some research before declaring this group of people lacking in formal training.

All right, on to the AI summaries.

Spoiler Alert: Only Eric Clapton and Joni Mitchell had no formal training. As a bonus, there are a number of child prodigies in his list.

Frank Sinatra: He practiced holding a glass of water on his stomach while lying down to master diaphragm control. He also learned to sustain long phrases by observing Dorsey's trombone playing. To build stamina for singing, Sinatra used to swim, often trying to swim the length of a pool on one breath. Early in his career, he worked with coach John Quinlan to improve his range and eliminate his Hoboken accent, which led to a co-authored book, "Tips on Popular Singing". He spent years on the road with big bands, learning how to phrase, use a microphone, and interpret lyrics.

Louis Armstrong: His musical training was primarily informal, rooted in the streets of New Orleans, but solidified by early formal training at the Colored Waif’s Home for Boys, where he learned the cornet and music reading from instructor Peter Davis. He developed his skills through mentorship with King Oliver, street corner singing, playing on riverboats, and absorbing the local jazz, blues, and brass band scene.

John Coltrane: His training was a blend of early formal music education, rigorous self-teaching, and extensive "on-the-job" training in jazz, R&B, and big bands. He studied theory at Philadelphia's Granoff Studios and the Ornstein School of Music. His formative years involved playing with Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, and Thelonious Monk, where he mastered complex harmonic structures

Eric Clapton: He was primarily a self-taught guitarist who developed his skills by ear, obsessively listening to and emulating Delta blues artists like Robert Johnson, as well as modern bluesmen like Freddie King and Buddy Guy. He practiced for hours daily, using a reel-to-reel recorder to analyze his playing.

Eddie Van Halen: His primary formal training was in classical piano, which he studied for roughly 10 years from age six, developing a strong sense of music theory, dexterity, and, notably, the ability to play by ear rather than reading sheet music. He did not take formal guitar lessons, instead teaching himself by listening to records and practicing intensely for hours daily.

Stevie Wonder: He is primarily a self-taught musical prodigy who mastered piano, harmonica, and drums before age 10. His formal training included studying classical piano, music theory, and learning to read/write music using Braille. He later received vocal training from renowned coach Seth Riggs, starting around age 19.

Joni Mitchell: She was largely a self-taught musician, driven by intuition and a desire to avoid conventional styles, rather than formal music training. Her artistic education included roughly a year studying art in Alberta, but she primarily trained herself on ukulele, guitar, and, after polio weakened her hand, innovative, self-devised alternative tunings.

George Gershwin: His musical training was a blend of limited formal piano instruction, hands-on experience as a Tin Pan Alley "song plugger", and intensive private study of harmony, theory, and orchestration with various mentors throughout his life. He was largely self-taught in composition early on, learning through imitation and practice before studying with teachers like Charles Hambitzer (piano) and Henry Cowell.

Modest Mussorgsky He had limited formal musical training, relying primarily on piano lessons from his mother and later Anton Gerke. His mother taught him piano from age six, and he was an exceptionally skilled pianist from a young age. This was followed by informal composition guidance from Mily Balakirev starting in 1857, who provided guidance in musical composition and exposed him to Western composers like Berlioz, Liszt, and Schumann. He was largely self-taught in composition, focusing on developing a unique, nationalistic style rather than traditional Western techniques.

David Helfgott He received training as a child prodigy in Australia by local teachers in Perth, including composer James Penberthy. At age 17, he began studying with Alice Carrard, a former student of Béla Bartók and István Thomán. He secured a scholarship to the prestigious Royal College of Music in London at age 19, studying under renowned pianist Cyril Smith, who described him as a brilliant talent comparable to Horowitz. His training focused on classical repertoire, specifically Rachmaninoff, and he won several awards at the RCM, including the Dannreuther Prize.

You don't need to know theory to make music. It helps, but ..
you do need it if you want to communicate effectively between musicians

I don't need to learn Spanish to insult you in that language (I just learned it on my own like some people do music), but if I want to actually 'communicate' in Spanish it sure helps!

Also, Reading the writing is one thing.
Understanding it another. Some people that can play very well understand it instinctively but can only communicate it on a basic level.
It's all part of what you decide is worth the effort.. There's a different balance for everyone.

"His primary formal training was in classical piano, which he studied for roughly 10 years from age six, developing a strong sense of music theory, dexterity, and, notably, the ability to play by ear rather than reading sheet music."

The ability to play by ear comes from that 'instinctive understanding of theory' some people have.
You hear the notes and just know where they are in relationship with each other.

Formal training helps with this, but often in weird ways.

When I hear something for the first time, I visualize it in my head as the notes on a piano. The intervals, the key, etc.
That's probably weird for most people, but it's how I first learn something by listening.
My theory is based on my early piano days.

When I play trumpet, I can pretty much just play it, but on guitar, when learning something new on my own, I am transposing a piano to frets between my head and my fingers, which is a difficult task (at first).
But once I play it a few times I no longer think about the piano at all when I play it.
It's just when learning something new.
For bass it's much easier for me because all the strings are a fourth above, but on guitar they just had to throw in that B string!
Yes, I'm weird, and even weirder for sharing that probably.

At least the 6 string bass has a C string instead of a B.

Having the top two notes B and E makes chords like A and E a walk in the park. But change the guitar strings to E A D G C F and see what happens to your chord shapes. It's not pretty.

I remember how I couldn't find any patterns between chords on the guitar, and then finally saw the "shift" that the B string did to the structure. I could suddenly see the E, A and D shapes were the same.

Like I said, it only happens when I am trying to learn something new and I 'see' it on piano and try to convert to guitar.
Once I have learned it, of course the B-E make sense.
/plus it was meant as humor

<minor rant>

Some people can write a great novel, without any formal “writer's theory” type education. Most of us cannot.

Some people can paint great masterpieces without any “artist's theory” equivalent of education. Most of us cannot.

Some people can write a great 3 act play without any formal “drama theory” equivalent. Most of us cannot.

I could go on and on, but I'll spare you.

I get tired of people trying to justify their reluctance to learn at least basic music theory because “so-and-so” is a great player without it. Most of us cannot.

Do yourself a favor, and get a book, watch YouTube videos or anything else that can teach you theory. You don't need formal eduction, but you will do better with the best method of education for you and your situation.

You will find two things (1) You will learn new things easier and quicker (2) You will be able to communicate with other musicians better because you will have a common language.

Music theory is “the fundamentals” of music. Learning it would help even those who achieved greatness without it.

</minor rant>

[quote=Notes Norton
But what does sports have to do with education? [/quote]

I do agree that in the US (can't speak for elsewhere) that too much emphasis is placed on sports and not enough on education.
And we do have massive childhood obesity and diabetes problems that proper exercise and sports could help address.
But there are no silver bullets, the big problems we have require big solutions.

Yes, but it also raised an actual, useful point.

That's what happens when you are both witty and clever.

Not sure I agree, marching band is a pretty good workout
/just sayin'

Especially when you are playing trumpet in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade in 30F temperature - been there - done that.