... if you are serious about your recording and you want to pursue your music growth by doing recordings, you have to move to a true DAW. Recording ones music is serious business and requires serious tools and workflow that BIAB simple does not have.
Okay Dan, I'll play devil's advocate and bite at the bait. What serious recording tools does BiaB simply not have?
Here is a short list specific to Reaper in my case: Take Management & Comping: REAPER excels at managing multiple vocal takes, allowing users to record in loops and easily select, swipe, or lane the best parts for a perfect vocal performance. Razor Edit Mode: A non-destructive editing mode that acts similar to Adobe Audition, allowing for fast cutting, moving, or editing of specific vocal phrases without destroying the original take. Take Folder/Lane System: Allows for stacking takes on top of each other, making it easy to compare and combine different performances. Item Pitch Manipulation: Users can hold Shift + Alt/Opt while dragging to quickly change the pitch of specific, individual vocal items for tuning adjustments. Customizable Track Templates: Allows setting up dedicated vocal tracks (lead/backing) with pre-loaded plugins, routing, and coloring, speeding up the workflow for repeated sessions. Input Monitoring & Effects Management: Offers low-latency monitoring with the ability to add effects (like reverb) while recording, which helps vocalists, while allowing the raw, "dry" signal to be recorded.
Now to your point, of couse a newbee may not understand and therefore not appreciate any of this. But my point is I would encourage them to to start to learn. With out going into the details - Reaper is essentially free to use as you are learning. When you discover how wonderful this specific DAW is, you will gladly send them $60 for lifetime use.
... if you are serious about your recording and you want to pursue your music growth by doing recordings, you have to move to a true DAW. Recording ones music is serious business and requires serious tools and workflow that BIAB simple does not have.
Okay Dan, I'll play devil's advocate and bite at the bait. What serious recording tools does BiaB simply not have?
Here is a short list specific to Reaper in my case: Take Management & Comping: REAPER excels at managing multiple vocal takes, allowing users to record in loops and easily select, swipe, or lane the best parts for a perfect vocal performance. Razor Edit Mode: A non-destructive editing mode that acts similar to Adobe Audition, allowing for fast cutting, moving, or editing of specific vocal phrases without destroying the original take. Take Folder/Lane System: Allows for stacking takes on top of each other, making it easy to compare and combine different performances. Item Pitch Manipulation: Users can hold Shift + Alt/Opt while dragging to quickly change the pitch of specific, individual vocal items for tuning adjustments. Customizable Track Templates: Allows setting up dedicated vocal tracks (lead/backing) with pre-loaded plugins, routing, and coloring, speeding up the workflow for repeated sessions. Input Monitoring & Effects Management: Offers low-latency monitoring with the ability to add effects (like reverb) while recording, which helps vocalists, while allowing the raw, "dry" signal to be recorded.
Now to your point, of couse a newbee may not understand and therefore not appreciate any of this. But my point is I would encourage them to to start to learn. With out going into the details - Reaper is essentially free to use as you are learning. When you discover how wonderful this specific DAW is, you will gladly send them $60 for lifetime use.
Excellent examples! One minor quibble. The $60 personal license fee is good for the current major version, plus the next one. For example, I bought a license when v4 with the current major version, so it was valid for v4 and v5. That was many, many years ago. When v6 was released, I bought a new license for $60 that was valid for v6 and v7 (which is the current major release). Here's part of the header from my license file:
Version: 6 (valid through 7.x) Type: Non-commercial Created on: Tue Dec 3 20:31:37 2019
That was over 6 years ago! And v7 is still going strong at v7.61. I will happily pay another $60 when v8 is released. I pay about $150 each annually for Bitwig Studio and Studio One (now Studio Pro). Reaper is extremely capable and is easily the most cost effective full DAW.
Personal caveat: I'm 74. Assuming that I live long enough to see the release of v8, the v8/v9 license will almost certainly be a lifetime license for me.
Last edited by TheMaartian; 02/09/2612:31 AM.
ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; RME Fireface UCX II; BiaB 2026 Ultra Studio Pro 8; Tonalic Studio 1; Reaper v7; Bitwig Studio 6; Melodyne Studio 5 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770
Great answer Dan and I appreciate TheMaartins addition about Reaper's licensing practices. Reaper seems to be very popular with many forum members. While the comments about input monioring with added effects and take management pertain to the discussion of recording in BiaB instead of recording in a Daw the other items mentioned have more to do with post production functions like editing or program management and do not pertain to recording so much. Still, all the comments are nice to know. One comment I can make about recording in a DAW versus recording in BiaB is most DAWs allow the use of surface controllers while BiaB doesn't. It seems to me that many people prefer to set levels with a surface controller over setting levels with a mouse. Another observation is most DAWs can accept more sample rate and bit depth settings without having to convert than BiaB. That restriction can make it more problematic to use some interfaces with BiaB than using the same interfaces with a DAW.
One comment I can make about recording in a DAW versus recording in BiaB is most DAWs allow the use of surface controllers while BiaB doesn't.
Ya, here is my vocal recording booth with "surface controller". I use this to arm, start and end my sessions since I can't sit at the workstation and perform in the booth at the same time.
In my understanding, people who DO want to record into BIAB want a simple solution for basic recording. Unlikely they would use 80% of features mentioned by Dan. Instead of sending these folks to DAWs or/and under-daw RB, perhaps a good idea to request this feature from PGM. The functions for doing this are there, but the process is not user friendly, outdated, inconsistent and does not reflect current philosophy of Track View.
I am certain that a good number of BIAB users would settle with several tracks of audio recording + BIAB accompanying tracks without the need of using another software, if it is simple enough.
BIAB needs a simple Arm>Record audio record option. Current method is very obsolete. Maybe not as advanced as mature DAWs, but simple enough to understand and use without digging out manual or asking questions on forum. I feel it is getting close to that point. I just wish it would be done well (like new UI) and not half baked, even if it would be limited to the number of existing tracks.
While I record audio / MIDI in DAW, I would very much appreciate being able to use a couple of existing tracks for basic audio input recording for sketches and ideas. 2026 BIAB Piano Roll is already very usable. Time to tackle audio recording.
P.S. Ohh, and a statement: "BIAB is not a DAW" makes me nauseous. BIAB is a DAW. A different kind, but nevertheless a DAW.
A significant difference between the DAWs I'm familiar with and BiaB is BiaB tracks can accept audio or midi input while DAWs have tracks that are midi or audio specific. Even DAW hybrid tracks, like Cakewalk's instrument track, is really just a midi track with a hidden instrument patch. I don't believe BiaB can have a "simple arm/record audio record option" as long as BiaB tracks are not midi or audio specific.
While you do not agree with the statement "BiaB is not a DAW", all you have to do is check out the +++ BiaB for Windows "About" +++ statement or consider why PG Music offers Realband to see PG Music does not agree that BiaB is a different kind of DAW.
In my understanding, people who DO want to record into BIAB want a simple solution for basic recording. Unlikely they would use 80% of features mentioned by Dan. Instead of sending these folks to DAWs or/and under-daw RB, perhaps a good idea to request this feature from PGM. The functions for doing this are there, but the process is not user friendly, outdated, inconsistent and does not reflect current philosophy of Track View.
I am certain that a good number of BIAB users would settle with several tracks of audio recording + BIAB accompanying tracks without the need of using another software, if it is simple enough.
Surprise! I agree with everything above. I'm just not sure what is the best way for PG Music to make recording more simple than it is at present.
However I'd like more information about the poster's problems while recording in BiaB to see if we can advise steps he can take to minimize the problems.
I haven't said anything about the RealBand comments because RealBand is a DAW and the question was about record in BiaB or a DAW. Additionally, while everyone in this discussion has computers using Windows I still try to consider readers with Macintosh computers. They do not have access to Realband.
"I'm just not sure what is the best way for PG Music to make recording more simple than it is at present." It could work 100 different simpler ways. One way this can be done: 1)Open track view. 2)Add blank utility track 3)Right click on track header and it should have option "Convert to Audio Track" or similar with arrow with input choices of your interface. (No silly pop-ups or modal windows!) Once the input is chosen, track is converted to accept audio input from the choice you made, adding arm button and level slider or knob. Hit main transport "Record" button and off you go.
Bass Thumper, just like with my response to Dan I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I have a question for you; are you more familiar with using a DAW or BiaB? I ask because I assume you are more familiar with recording in a DAW than you are with recording in BiaB. Remember this thread started with the question should the op record in BiaB or a DAW.
Jim, you are entirely right, I am more familiar with recording in my DAW than in BiaB. However, over the years I’ve had sufficiently painful experiences with the GUI and workflow of BiaB and RealBand to confidently say (imho) that if you take your music seriously and seek to musically grow then BiaB is not the recording tool you want. It isn’t only about “recording” per se. It’s about all the other tasks and sub tasks that are required to take an idea from creative inception thru completion.
I have struggled with BiaB’s outdated GUI, inconsistent workflows and lack of quality post-processing for years. But the chord entry grid and the quality of the RTs is what keeps me loyal. But struggles with basic elements like odd time signatures and consistent looping workflows have been detractors for many. What does this have to do with recording? Everything. Because the same lack of strategic design thinking is embedded in the recording aspects of BiaB.
This is contrasted to Studio One, now FSP where simple drag and drop is prevalent in the program and logic and consistency is prioritized by the Presonus/Fender development team. FSP is my audio hub and there isn’t a single feature I can think of that is missing (or is clunky) regarding it. Is it perfect? For me, right now, yes. Despite this, improvements and additions are continually made to it; many of which I may never use. If you spend some time in the world-class DAW forums, you’ll see that they are way beyond debating odd time sigs and whether or not looping should be standardized. Those issues were solved years or even decades ago.
And so, rather than needing to fight BiaB to accomplish what I need, FSP is not only a joy to work with but historically has been 3 steps ahead of me on what I need to do. BiaB historically has been 2 steps behind. My time is too valuable to spend 20 minutes doing a task in BiaB where 2 mouse clicks and a drag gets it done in FSP.
To one degree or another we’re comparing elephants to ants. I wouldn’t be surprised if the weekly staff effort of the big-name DAWs are measured in multi-thousand manhours. My AI assistant searched Ableton as having 500 employees (20k hrs/wk) and Avid/ProTools having approx. 1500 employees (60k hrs/wk). Of course, not every employee is involved in sw development, but it gives some idea as to what we’re talking about.
My advice to those that want to compose music is to put BiaB in your toolbox. My advice to those that want to record, process and share music is to put a big-name DAW in your toolbox.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Some posters are missing one trivial point. A good number of people using BIAB don't need much. 2-8 tracks of audio recording would fulfill their needs entirely. If I had to guess, that number of users are likely at least 20% of all BIABers. Possibly much more.
I've enjoyed this conversation. It's been fun playing Devil's Advocate. Thanks to everyone for participating up to this point and particular dpresley for starting the thread. I've about exhausted the Devil's Advocate part of me so I'll drop out for now.
My goal is to integrate my own bass tracks with real tracks. The live interaction of bass with real tracks makes them more "real". With my Motu interface and line out from amp I don't think there is any difference regarding whether recording in Biab or Sonar. Once recorded I can easily audition various real tracks or drums if I stay in Biab.
Another reason I like this is that I spend too much time searching for bass lines that don't fit the groove.
My goal is to integrate my own bass tracks with real tracks. The live interaction of bass with real tracks makes them more "real". With my Motu interface and line out from amp I don't think there is any difference regarding whether recording in Biab or Sonar. Once recorded I can easily audition various real tracks or drums if I stay in Biab.
Another reason I like this is that I spend too much time searching for bass lines that don't fit the groove.
My 2 cents.
You are absolutely correct. There's no difference recording in BIAB than Sonar through your interface. Honestly, the whole process is easy,.
Charlie, process is not "easy". Honestly. It is outdated, convoluted and out of touch with current standard methods. This is especially evident now when we got Track view, which is PGM's way to "standardize" user experience. Audio recording in BIAB as it is now, is a bolt on approach, which needs rethinking.
Charlie, process is not "easy". Honestly. It is outdated, convoluted and out of touch with current standard methods. This is especially evident now when we got Track view, which is PGM's way to "standardize" user experience. Audio recording in BIAB as it is now, is a bolt on approach, which needs rethinking.
I plugged in a USB mic. opened BIAB, Tracks View, Hit the main transport Record Button and recorded several seconds of audio. That's about as standard as it gets. Show us how to make it easier.
This whole argument is workflow related. Once you have spent time in a DAW & then try BiaB, it's a battle.
Some people come in here via that route. Which is why I sometimes recommend RB, as it's workflow is much more DAW like. It's not a leading edge DAW, but it offers the BiaB advantages in a DAW like workflow, though the GUI still needs a bit of getting used to.
No 32 bar choruses and regenerating evey time you hit play, instead you generate what you want where you want on any track. And have more & more intuitive control.
I know, none of this answers how to record in BiaB, but it does say PGMusic also gives you another way (free with BiaB) to do what it does. Try it, you may like it better. I do. Every time I open BiaB, trying to do normal DAW stuff just takes more effort.
Last edited by rharv; 02/09/2605:52 PM. Reason: added &
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
rharv, "This whole argument is workflow related." Agreed. But so is everything else, from baking to house building. Cliché, but one of the main ideas behind of software is that it's not hardware and it should evolve. I believe current method existed way before Track View. Now they need to integrate existing functions to current reality.
In 7 years I was here, I am yet to see any (!) new member come in and praise RB. There must be a good reason for that. Just think about that statement for a moment. Prove me wrong.
Again, instead of sending people to traditional Daw for basic task as this, there should be a straight forward and widely accepted method to record audio in BIAB - PGM's flagship product. Maybe not as advanced as some posters mentioned comparing with other titles, but user friendly. I just hope they will get some user input on this, as they did with UI to avoid making something that will not be accepted well by those who want and understand the benefit of good workflow concerning audio recording in BIAB.
I'll keep this brief as I'm going through some minor medical stuff.
So the fact that some people come on these forums and detail they have done over 80 songs in RB counts for nothing ?
I'm a Reaper user but I also like real band. Rb does things I haven't seen in any other music software including band in a Box... I've posted the differences with band in a box on these forums. Both biab and rb have their advantages and differences.
I've done a ton of songs using the Reaper real band and band in a box combo.
Happiness
Om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 02/09/2608:45 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
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Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
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I use this to arm, start and end my sessions since I can't sit at the workstation and perform in the booth at the same time. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=32299&filename=IMG_2379.jpeg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/zDWC4TCt/rec.jpg)
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