G'day Bob,
I probably should just let this lie, but, what the hey - it's fun and I like the opportunity to lay out my thoughts logically...
Quote:


Every part of the human body is an instrument. Does that make everyone on the planet musicians?

We have to draw a line somewhere. If you can't play a musical instrument, (which I know you can play several instruments), then you aren't a musician.



AHA! A light dawns...

Are all those who sing a song "singers"? NO
Are all those who sit at a piano and "plink" away pianists? NO
What about those who pick up a guitar and strum away? Are they all guitarists? Again, NO
What about those mongrel vuvuzela players - DEFINITELY NO!!! (I don't care where you draw your line, they are DEFINITELY on the noise side!)

Why? Is it because not all will have put the effort into learning how to do it "properly"? I put "properly" into quotes because its definition is a point of view, usually culturally based, but sometimes it is a bias rooted in education or musical taste.

Or is it musicality based? So what is the dividing line between music and noise? The answer must be culturally and/or musical taste based. E.G. to me rap/hip hop is noise, or if you prefer, music for the tone deaf - it does nothing for me... My preference is for jazz, but then not all that which is called jazz is "music to my ears". I particularly like swing era big band stuff, but bebop is fun too. I can only take so much dixieland... Which is a bit sad really when you consider that I might otherwise have been a good "tailgate trombone" player As an aside, my son recently taught me how to appreciate "death metal" - it's just the Cookie Monster singing

The voice is a unique instrument because it is so common. We *all have one and have all learned to use it to some extent for basic comminication. We have not all learned how to use it to its (bias or culturally based) musical best. To do that it takes training, practice and discipline, just like any other instrument. Is it the fact that it is so common the reason that you choose to exclude it from being an instrument and by inference its product as music? Surely the definition of "musician" must be one who makes music?

But hang on, what about my uncle Athol (deceased some 35 or more years ago). He'd never had any formal training of any kind. Couldn't read a note to save his life. Had the weirdest guitar tuning you've ever seen. I don't remember exactly, but IIRC the strings in the usual D, G, B and high E positions were all the same guage - so no way he was using a "normal" tuning. He was, of course, completely self taught. He was well known in the region and people would come for miles to hear him sing and play.

Was he a musician or not? Pure native talent, no formal training, no musical standards that others could follow (he was useless in an ensemble unless the others were singers or percussion), his guitar was always tuned relative to itself; by ear - not to any reference like say a pitch pipe...

He was exactly the way you've described most of what you call singers. A gift...

He had no training, but made beautiful music. Was he truly a musician? Why would his guitar playing make him a musician but his singing not?

I know we won't come to a concensus mate, but I am pleased we can have a lively discussion without ire. I hope your Christmas was merry and I pray your new year will be the best yet.

*For the sake of dicsussion I'm excluding those who are mute for some reason.

--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!