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Re: ethical considerations John Conley #97905 12/30/10 04:24 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	John, Quote: Well if you have a real look on a big screen TV at your vocal chords you'd get that the voice is an instrument. Every part of the human body is an instrument. Does that make everyone on the planet musicians? We have to draw a line somewhere. If you can't play a musical instrument, (which I know you can play several instruments), then you aren't a musician. It's just my opinion, and we all have those. Just because I can paint a room doesn't make me an artist. I can build a doghouse, but that doesn't make me an architect. ...... Do we want to belittle the art of of making music to anyone who can create a sound? I'll limit the answer to my own opinion. It's a simple answer of no. Take care and Happy New Year. I hope you have many more to come. Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: ethical considerations bobcflatpicker #97906 12/30/10 05:57 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,439 NSW, Australia Lawrie Expert
Lawrie Expert Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,439 NSW, Australia	G'day Bob, I probably should just let this lie, but, what the hey - it's fun and I like the opportunity to lay out my thoughts logically... Quote: Every part of the human body is an instrument. Does that make everyone on the planet musicians? We have to draw a line somewhere. If you can't play a musical instrument, (which I know you can play several instruments), then you aren't a musician. AHA! A light dawns... Are all those who sing a song "singers"? NO Are all those who sit at a piano and "plink" away pianists? NO What about those who pick up a guitar and strum away? Are they all guitarists? Again, NO What about those mongrel vuvuzela players - DEFINITELY NO!!! (I don't care where you draw your line, they are DEFINITELY on the noise side!) Why? Is it because not all will have put the effort into learning how to do it "properly"? I put "properly" into quotes because its definition is a point of view, usually culturally based, but sometimes it is a bias rooted in education or musical taste. Or is it musicality based? So what is the dividing line between music and noise? The answer must be culturally and/or musical taste based. E.G. to me rap/hip hop is noise, or if you prefer, music for the tone deaf - it does nothing for me... My preference is for jazz, but then not all that which is called jazz is "music to my ears". I particularly like swing era big band stuff, but bebop is fun too. I can only take so much dixieland... Which is a bit sad really when you consider that I might otherwise have been a good "tailgate trombone" player As an aside, my son recently taught me how to appreciate "death metal" - it's just the Cookie Monster singing The voice is a unique instrument because it is so common. We all have one and have all learned to use it to some extent for basic comminication. We have not all learned how to use it to its (bias or culturally based) musical best. To do that it takes training, practice and discipline, just like any other instrument. Is it the fact that it is so common the reason that you choose to exclude it from being an instrument and by inference its product as music? Surely the definition of "musician" must be one who makes music? But hang on, what about my uncle Athol (deceased some 35 or more years ago). He'd never had any formal training of any kind. Couldn't read a note to save his life. Had the weirdest guitar tuning you've ever seen. I don't remember exactly, but IIRC the strings in the usual D, G, B and high E positions were all the same guage - so no way he was using a "normal" tuning. He was, of course, completely self taught. He was well known in the region and people would come for miles to hear him sing and play. Was he a musician or not? Pure native talent, no formal training, no musical standards that others could follow (he was useless in an ensemble unless the others were singers or percussion), his guitar was always tuned relative to itself; by ear - not to any reference like say a pitch pipe... He was exactly the way you've described most of what you call singers. A gift... He had no training, but made beautiful music. Was he truly a musician? Why would his guitar playing make him a musician but his singing not? I know we won't come to a concensus mate, but I am pleased we can have a lively discussion without ire. I hope your Christmas was merry and I pray your new year will be the best yet. For the sake of dicsussion I'm excluding those who are mute for some reason. --=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=-- You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

Re: ethical considerations bobcflatpicker #97907 12/30/10 09:22 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 253 Washington State jeffgee Apprentice
jeffgee Apprentice Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 253 Washington State	Quote: Bird’s can sing a beautiful song, … but they’re not playing an instrument. They’re singing, … and a beautiful song it is. I’d hate to see the day that the birds didn’t sing. I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific when it comes to birds as there is a bird who sits outside my window while I'm practicing. He is always singing out of tune....however with a nice karaoke machine and the right pitch correction software he could sound okay...I think its save to say he is not a musician:) I tried to stick my qwerty keyboard out the window to let him peck out a few changes in biab he wouldn't even do that so I know he has no theory background either ......Just a little humor to lighten up the forum:) ...........Jeff......

Re: ethical considerations jeffgee #97908 12/30/10 10:06 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Interesting thread guys. While we label one another and try to to decide what kind of person adds musical value and who does not, the public we want to play for has made absolutely NO differentiation between musicians, singers, DJs, Karaoke etc. To them, it's all just "live music" So the question that remains for each of us is: if you want to make money playing for those who make no differentiation, which niche works best for you? Because in the end, they all get about the same respect and the same paycheck Pick one and go for it. Or, take the high road and decide not to. But the trend is in the direction of singles acts of one kind or another; whether or not you are part of the trend is your personal decision. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: ethical considerations Pat Marr #97909 12/30/10 12:38 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 253 Washington State jeffgee Apprentice
jeffgee Apprentice Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 253 Washington State	Quote: So the question that remains for each of us is: if you want to make money playing for those who make no differentiation, which niche works best for you? Because in the end, they all get about the same respect and the same paycheck you make a really good point I used to have a music business handbook that was called "Where art meets commerce" or something like that.I think it is safe to say that talent buyers like what they like for reasons separate from the reasons people become musicians. The same can be said about musical styles I think...Its not always the ones that take the most chops to play that pay the most...Personally I like to try to strike a balance between offering a service that people are willing to pay for and still doing something artistic to me in some way. ...........Jeff......

Re: ethical considerations jeffgee #97910 12/30/10 02:10 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Well put, Jeff! We can choose how we want to play the game, but the more we discriminate against the art-buyers' taste, the fewer opportunities we'll have for gigs. And for basically the same investment in equipment and preparation of backing tracks, the musical entrepreneur could easily offer all 3 services to the entertainment-buying public: If the venue wants a small band, then perform along with your own backing tracks, and you're a one man band. If the venue wants karaoke, then let others sing along to your backing tracks. If the venue wants a DJ, then play CDs through your PA system Somebody in your home town is paying SOMEBODY for at least ONE of these services on any given night of the week. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: ethical considerations Pat Marr #97911 12/30/10 05:10 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Bob, Gotta say that you have one of the most narrow definitions of a musician that I know of. Seems we went down the same road with the 'Animal' antics of the drummer for that schtick band that plays gigs nearly every night of the year. My opinion of course. To me, the 'ian' added to the word 'Music' means a 'follower of' or 'one who practices'. -Scott My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: ethical considerations Pat Marr #97912 12/30/10 06:09 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,342 Friesland, The Netherlands Mike sings Expert
Mike sings Expert Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,342 Friesland, The Netherlands	This is a nice off-off-topic discussion. The fact that I got triggered by the term "Karaoke Guy" is the simple reason that I want to be acknowledged as a serious artist an musician. We all seem to dislike the DJ's who just press the "play" button and the shower-vocalists that go out with their lyrics on screen (or book) and try to sing with a karaoke-backing track. And don't forget the people who participate in all of 'em "talent" shows. I'm lucky they broadcast those in the weekends, when I'm out working, so I don't have to watch those tossers. Some of them even make it (for a limited period of time). fact is, they can't manage on their own on any aspect of the trade if their live depended on it! I play guitar (mostly rhythm and some slow soloing, I just can't seem to move my fingers quick enough to play ear-burning solo's). Learned that (and continue to learn) at the cost of countless hours of practice and blistered fingers. I play some drums. I can keep the beat steady for a whole song and give a steady base for a band to play with. Again practice, practice, practice. I know how to play the simple chords on a keyboard and I know the lay-out of a keyboard so I can play melodies in the key I want them in. The only instrument I have put at least at much time and effort in to learn to master as into playing guitar is my into voice. Let me tell you there's a big difference in singing one show a month and doing an all-night show (4 * 45 minutes) four or five nights in succession! Imagine you have a cold and you have a weekend of gigs ahead of you. You simply can't do that without extensive schooling and training. Yes, one voice sounds nice and another voice will sound harsh. But with training and extensive exercise every voice can be trained to sing in tune, in time. But one person will have more natural talent than an other. Just like playing guitar, guessbone or any other instrument. We could say Carl Lewis is not an athlete because any (most) human can walk. He just used his talent to be a little quicker than the others. Given the fact that a horn player is not a guitar player (not counting Mac ) and a drummer is not a singer. Yet if put together they can make music. What instrument makes it worth the title "music" ? I do like gigging with my band better than doing solo gigs (by that I mean al by myself!), but venues simply won't pay for a band and the PA. And when I do a solo gig I get to cash 4 times more than when I play with a band. Pick your choice if your family depended on it... The market wants so the market gets. I don't play guitar on my solo gigs 'cause they don't pay me extra to do so (and don't give a damn if I do or don't), I don't have to tote the extra equipment and I have less things to think about. Mike www.mikewever.nl

Re: ethical considerations rockstar_not #97913 12/30/10 07:13 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	Scott, Quote: Gotta say that you have one of the most narrow definitions of a musician that I know of. This isn’t anything I have any reason to have strong feelings about, and I don’t. I was mainly enjoying a lively good natured debate with Lawrie. I definitely wouldn’t want to offend anyone because of something that really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. Some opinions I have are very important to me, ...... this one really isn’t. I just thought it was a good topic of discussion on this thread, especially since it had strayed so far from the original topic. So keeping the “good natured” intent intact, let’s look at your definition of musician: Quote: the 'ian' added to the word 'Music' means a 'follower of' or 'one who practices'. Since “Dead Heads” are devoted “followers of” the Grateful Dead, would that make them musicians? Along a different vein, since recording engineers are an essential part of the music industry, if they don’t play an instrument, are they musicians? If they are, what about all of the other folks involved in the music industry who don’t play an instrument? Are they musicians? Once again, there are no strong feelings involved on my part about this. It’s just a topic of discussion and I hope it's taken in the good natured manner it's intended to be. Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: ethical considerations Mike sings #97914 12/30/10 07:15 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 8,660 Pawling New York R Rob Helms Veteran
Rob Helms Veteran R Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 8,660 Pawling New York	I took singing lessons, and i must say they helped it took training and effort to overcome a few bad habits. I wished i had time and money to do it again. Any real goo d singer has to work hard at it, they have to learn breath control, timing, and pitch. then need to warm up and exercise their vocal cords. Then when it is right they can inspire like not other instrument can. Yes the voice is an instrument, and it take a ton of hard work to learn to use it. Yes some have natural ability to start with, but greatness is earned. Some small children have an ear for music, and can learn a piano or guitar rather easily, but greatness is earned Same thing! HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.

Re: ethical considerations Rob Helms #97915 12/30/10 07:44 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	Robh, Singing lessons definitely do help. I ordered a course many years ago from Homespun and the lady teaching the course had some pretty unique, (I think), exercises that were part of the course. The exercises were intended to eliminate cracks in your voice and to increase your range on both ends of the spectrum. They were: 1. Howling like a wolf from as low as you could start to as high as you could go. 2. Making siren noises from low to high and then back to low. 3. Laughing like a witch! You felt and sounded like a lunatic while doing these, but they really did help. The only time I’d do these was while I was driving alone so no one else could hear me, although there may have been more than one person go home and tell their spouse they heard some nut job driving down the road making siren sounds! Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: ethical considerations bobcflatpicker #97916 12/30/10 09:29 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,439 NSW, Australia Lawrie Expert
Lawrie Expert Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,439 NSW, Australia	Oh Bob, dear Bob, this opening too good to pass up: Quote: Along a different vein, since recording engineers are an essential part of the music industry, if they don’t play an instrument, are they musicians? If they are, what about all of the other folks involved in the music industry who don’t play an instrument? Are they musicians? I dunno, are they singers? --=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=-- You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

Re: ethical considerations Lawrie #97917 12/30/10 09:50 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	Lawrie, Believe it or not, I actually anticipated this exact response from you. LOL. May I propose a scenario for you? Let's say you're at a social event and you meet someone who happens to be a professional singer,(but they don't play an instrument), and you don't know that. You ask them what they do for a living. (I'll concede the voice as an instrument for the sake of this discussion.) Would their answer be singer, instrumentalist or musician? Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: ethical considerations Lawrie #97918 12/30/10 10:50 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	If we take the “wiki” definition of a musician, then it’s very broad, …… and even includes conductors. For the sake of this topic, let’s assume the conductor doesn’t play an instrument, or sing. Obviously the conductor knows a great deal about music, the feel needed for a particular piece, timing, nuance and what it takes to make the difference between a good performance and a great one, and how to make it happen. Then let’s recreate the “social gathering” I mentioned before. I ask the conductor what they do for a living and their response is, “I’m a musician”. My natural response will be “What instrument do you play?”. They say “I don’t play any instruments, …… I conduct an orchestra”. At this point, I’m gonna have a real hard time NOT saying “Then you aren’t a musician. You are the one shaking the stick at musicians. The musicians are the ones having a stick shook at them!” Obviously, this would never happen because a conductor would think it "beneath" him/her to be considered a musician! The musicians are the "worker bees" in his/her mind to reach their ultimate goal. All of the people involved in getting the music we all love have a role to play in delivering that music to us. Each role is defined, (although most of the time people would fit into several categories because of their skills). Singers sing, musicians play their instruments, conductors conduct if needed, recording engineers record it all, and a whole host of other folks get involved in the music industry before we get the final product, ……… music! Please note that only one group in this chain are musicians. Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/30/10 11:05 PM. Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: ethical considerations bobcflatpicker #97919 12/31/10 12:44 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	My wife trained as a 'conductor'. She had 15 years of piano, high end theory through the Royal Conservatory, and played the oboe. At university she took 4 years of music and another year of teaching. She can play, at least at a passable level, every instrument. How else will you teach? Every conductor knows the range of the instruments, what passages are hard or easy, and the 3 professional ones I know can take a full score, with instruments on every line, and sing you the part, perhaps not in the exact notes for say a high clarinet part, but even my wife, who never followed up her original dream and now is the administrator for a department with 70 employees, can sing me back parts of scores 30 years after her degree was finished. You don't really get to hold that stick because you used to play drums and lost one. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: ethical considerations John Conley #97920 12/31/10 06:25 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,439 NSW, Australia Lawrie Expert
Lawrie Expert Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,439 NSW, Australia	Quote: Lawrie, Believe it or not, I actually anticipated this exact response from you. LOL. Of course you did, you left the door wide open for me Quote: May I propose a scenario for you? Let's say you're at a social event and you meet someone who happens to be a professional singer,(but they don't play an instrument), and you don't know that. You ask them what they do for a living. (I'll concede the voice as an instrument for the sake of this discussion.) Would their answer be singer, instrumentalist or musician? Probably singer, but by the same token, if I were a professional I would probably say that I'm a trombonist... Though I will concede the possiblity that I might say musician as it is a more generic term. Would you call yourself a musician or guitarist first? I find we all tend to favour our particular specialisation when describing ourselves. With respect to conductors, I've never met or even heard of a conductor that wasn't an instrumentalist first. Many, if not all, are multi instrumentalists. However, if they were a professional conductor then I suspect that given there is extra status involved in the position they would describe themself as a conductor, or possibly a music director. --=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=-- You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

Re: ethical considerations Mike sings #97921 12/31/10 07:05 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Quote: The fact that I got triggered by the term "Karaoke Guy" is the simple reason that I want to be acknowledged as a serious artist and musician. Mike, I've been watching this thread since the beginning... I must have missed the part where you were singled out for disdain as a "karaoke guy." As far as I can see, you are one of the few on the forum who makes his living playing music, and I would guess that most (if not all) of the forum members respect that. You clearly play in a successful group, and that is a better testimony of your ability than any forum opinions. As has been stated already, forum banter tends to be "for the sake of discussion" more than anything else. Many of us will argue both sides of a point, just to flesh out a full range of considerations. One thing is sure in my mind: you are a valued and respected member of the forum, and I doubt that anybody intended to slight you in this discussion. Speaking for myself, I have respect for what you're doing musically... the whole spectrum of it. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: ethical considerations Pat Marr #97922 12/31/10 08:01 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 8,660 Pawling New York R Rob Helms Veteran
Rob Helms Veteran R Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 8,660 Pawling New York	I also play guitar, bass and a little drums, but i don't call myself a musician, i call myself a guitarist or guitar player. Musician is a bit too broad a definition for me. Of course this is in part because i do not make a living at it. I prefer branch manager as a vocational title. As far as my singing it is a hobby that i love. I will play small parties and such from time to time, the last being a corporate gig for my wife's boss. I played the guitar and sang using RB backing tracks. As far as the effort to build skills i work harder at singing than guitar. Singing takes more hard work to master as on wrong note and you blow the whole song. I still have to take glances at the chords and lyrics (which RB scrolls) from time to time, but i am working on that as well, so I guess I am a semi singing/guitar playing/karaoke artist in process! My voice to me is my best instrument, that i have the best chance to impress and be invited again. My guitar playing is decent, and slowly improving. Anyway fun discussion, but still everything said so far is opinions, and then are like noses everyone has one, and they all smell! Unless you have a cold or something. HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.

Re: ethical considerations Rob Helms #97923 12/31/10 09:02 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Quote: I also play guitar, bass and a little drums, but i don't call myself a musician, i call myself a guitarist or guitar player. Musician is a bit too broad a definition for me. I identify with your point, Rob. If I had to label myself, it would probably be much like your own statement. But personally, I don't like the practice of labelling people at all. I much prefer Dr. Gannon's tag line that says something to the effect of "HAVE FUN" I like being in the presence of people who are having fun with music, no matter how they are doing it. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: ethical considerations Pat Marr #97924 12/31/10 09:04 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,386 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,386 Mi., USA	If I'm around people having fun with music, I don't want to be 'present'; I wanna play! I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

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