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Hi,
I was wondering how suspended chords should be notated in Biab. I've been experimenting with the chord builder and here are my assumptions:
1. C2 is C D G in Biab (should be called Csus2)
2. C4 is C F G Bb in Biab (should be called C7sus4)
C7sus is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C7susb5 is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C7susb9 is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C9sus is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C9susb5 is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
3. Csus is C F G in Biab (should be called Csus4)
4. I cannot enter the chord C7sus2 (C D G Bb) in Biab
5. C7alt is Db E G Bb in Biab?
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Am I correct? Someone else who can give this a thought? Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Superbron
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6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
--- Guess you mean : C E Gb, not Ab.
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There are other problems here, but let me first take perhaps the most problematic of these, #5.
A C7alt means that neither the fifth (G) nor the ninth (D) appears unaltered. So, it could be a flat five (Gb), a sharp five (G#), a flat nine (Db) and/or a sharp nine (D#). You would have a C root. You would also have, as you mentioned, the minor seventh (Bb). There would be no G, but there could be a Db. And it's not a suspended chord.
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Superbron, there are a few guesses and assumptions going on in your list. I would suggest a good book on Music Theory that goes into the methodology of the Fake Chord naming convention. There are likely some free online tutorials for the web-searching, as well. Not going to address them all, but: Quote:
4. I cannot enter the chord C7sus2 (C D G Bb) in Biab
BB doesn't support all possible chords yet. If it isn't in the chordlist, then we have to use a substitute that will sound okay but not notate correctly. Gm/C would be one of those subs that would yield the same notes in most style files.
Quote:
5. C7alt is Db E G Bb in Biab?
Could be. The "Alt" chord is a situation of choice. Alt means that we can rather freely substitute the b5, #5 and b9, #9 in the chord, with taste as to the Melody or other considerations, of course. BiaB may play the b9 as you list here, but other times or other style picks may play one -- or more -- of the other possibilities along with the base triad. For example, it might play C7#5b9, equally acceptable. With this specific chord, it is truly a jazz thing.
Quote:
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
"Cb5" would spell the flat five chord of C, E, Gb -- but C5 is the Powerchord, the two-noter so loved by rock guitarists, the C and the G together. C5b doesn't ring a bell with me at the moment. If you have it on a chart, it might be an attempt to notate the Tritone, C and Gb, played together as two notes. This one would not likely be of value in the key of C, though for the C and Gb together are the tritone D7 or the tritone of Ab7 and is interchangeable in those two keys.
Quote:
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Well, it may depend upon context, but if confronted with it standalone like this, I'd have to call it a "C5add6" -- whoch would be thoroughly confusing to the reader. Depending upon keysig, this one might really be a skeletal Am7, or you might, in a weird sort fo way, call it a C5add13, which is the same as saying add6, same note, A, but indicates playing it outside the octave, away from the G, to avoid the G-A side-by-side thing.
A good book on the subject is recommended here. Trying to figure out the theory by studying the BiaB program will only get you so far -- and is likely to lead to errors. The real way to figure out the naming and its convention is to simply know the scales, the major and minor scales. The numbers are derived from the scales and it is then only a matter of knowing which step of the scale is the name for the key you are in. Knowing this stuff will also improve your playing skills, so no loss there at all.
Everyon I know who has avoided getting into this subject and then finally "bites the bullet" says the same thing after only a week or two dealing with it, "This is easier than I thought it would be!"
And it is.
--Mac
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Quote:
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
--- Guess you mean : C E Gb, not Ab.
Biab only plays the notes C E Ab, it wonders me too, because I expected C Gb or C E Gb as well, because of the 5b.
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Quote:
There are other problems here, but let me first take perhaps the most problematic of these, #5.
A C7alt means that neither the fifth (G) nor the ninth (D) appears unaltered. So, it could be a flat five (Gb), a sharp five (G#), a flat nine (Db) and/or a sharp nine (D#). You would have a C root. You would also have, as you mentioned, the minor seventh (Bb). There would be no G, but there could be a Db. And it's not a suspended chord.
Ok, thanks: this is a strange chord indeed. In Biab the notes that are played when I enter C7alt are: C E G Bb and Db. Strange though that C and Db don't seem to clash, while they only have a half tone interval.
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Mac,
Thanks for your time and answers.
#4: Gm/C is the best sub I guess. thanks!
#5: In Biab the notes that are played when I enter C7alt are: C E G Bb and Db. Strange though that C and Db don't seem to clash, while they only have a half tone interval.
#6: C and Gb (F#) is rather clashing, so I was amazed about the presence of this chord (?) in Biab and even more amazed that Biab is playing the notes C E Ab,whilst I expected C Gb or C E Gb.
#7: C5add6 or Csus6 are no excepted input for Biab :-(
I am studying chords, scales and progressions at the moment, hence my questions here. The rather normal chords such as C, Cmin, Cdim, C7, Cmaj7, etc. aren't the problem: theory and Biab are consonant there :-), but it's the more 'jazzy' and less used chords that are causing some clashes between theory and Biab for me.
Cheers,
Superbron
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Quote:
#5: In Biab the notes that are played when I enter C7alt are: C E G Bb and Db. Strange though that C and Db don't seem to clash, while they only have a half tone interval.
Superbron
That's a bit odd, with the G, but it's possible, especially if you look at the chords before and after, or if it's a passing tone.
About the dissonance of two tones a half-step apart, you are already used to a more melodious example, the Maj7 chord. CMaj7 has both a C and a B natural, and they sound fine together, even next to each other. For example, try voicing it on a piano like this, going up: B, C, E, G. It should sound fine, partially because we are used to that sound in Western music. Contemporary jazz players have similarly become used to the sound of altered chords, and find no dissonance. Plus, it's a whole lot of fun to play over because there are so many things you can play on it.
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Quote:
#7: Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
I came up with C5/A, although Biab accepts this chord it doesn't play an A as bass note. The only notes played are C and G of the C5 :-(
Last edited by Superbron; 03/25/10 04:11 AM.
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Quote:
About the dissonance of two tones a half-step apart, you are already used to a more melodious example, the Maj7 chord. CMaj7 has both a C and a B natural, and they sound fine together, even next to each other. For example, try voicing it on a piano like this, going up: B, C, E, G. It should sound fine, partially because we are used to that sound in Western music.
Thanks Matt, I only realize this now :-) Should this be due to the fact that the half tone interval is next to the root note? Are there other chords with half tone intervals that don't clash?
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Hi Superbron.
I just tried C5b. The notes it played for me were C-E-Ab as well. Strange. I think you have stumbled onto a bug. C-E-Ab would be either Caug or possibly Cadd(b13).
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Quote:
I just tried C5b. The notes it played for me were C-E-Ab as well. Strange. I think you have stumbled onto a bug. C-E-Ab would be either Caug or possibly Cadd(b13).
Hi Noel,
Glad I'm not the only one. Did you try the other chords I mentioned as well?
Cheers,
Superbron
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Quote:
Quote:
About the dissonance of two tones a half-step apart, you are already used to a more melodious example, the Maj7 chord. CMaj7 has both a C and a B natural, and they sound fine together, even next to each other. For example, try voicing it on a piano like this, going up: B, C, E, G. It should sound fine, partially because we are used to that sound in Western music.
Thanks Matt, I only realize this now :-) Should this be due to the fact that the half tone interval is next to the root note? Are there other chords with half tone intervals that don't clash?
Plenty. The variants of Maj7, such as Maj9 and Maj13.
The placement of the tones has no bearing. I just gave you one inversion of the chord.
For another example, a 13 chord has both the 13 (an octave above the sixth) and the minor seventh, so that yields a half-step 'clash'. Same for a #9 chord, with a half-step between the major third and the sharp nine (again, an octave apart).
But 'clash' is in the ear of the beholder (behearer?). I don't hear a 'clash' in any of those chords. Others might, but I hear an opportunity.
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Quote:
But 'clash' is in the ear of the beholder (behearer?). I don't hear a 'clash' in any of those chords. Others might, but I hear an opportunity.
I guess that must be the case. Thanks Matt.
Anyone who has some ideas on the suspended chords?
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Quote:
Anyone who has some ideas on the suspended chords?
I guess not...
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Hi Mac,
One of the simple quips I came up with to dispell the fear of music theory to my students is, "If you can count to 7 you may not make a rocket scientist... but you can make a rock star!"
I do have one question I would like your opinion on. You make mention of the 13th chord in your example. I have been told as a guitar player being the 13th chord contains all the notes in the scale to play the 1st, 3rd and which ever ones that are within comfort to reach as sufficient. I know you are a jazz player. Would you say that was good advice?
Thanks,
RickeG
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RickeG, I'm not Mac, but then again, he didn't use a 13th chord in his post. So, not sure who you are asking.
A 13th chord does not contain "all the notes in the scale".
C13 for example has, going up from C root: C E G Bb D and A
You don't have to play all of them. In fact, a guitarist would often leave out the root if there is a bass playing it. A guitarist can tell you better.
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Quote:
I do have one question I would like your opinion on. You make mention of the 13th chord in your example. I have been told as a guitar player being the 13th chord contains all the notes in the scale to play the 1st, 3rd and which ever ones that are within comfort to reach as sufficient. I know you are a jazz player. Would you say that was good advice?
Thanks,
RickeG
That's about the size of it for the guitarist, Ricke.
When I want the guitar to sound like the full, rich 13 chord, like when there is no keyboardist grabbing it (when there's a B3 player, just play a 6 and stand back *grin*) then I usually grab the following pattern:
Let's say it is a G13.
3,X,3,4,5,5
For the G(1),X,F(7),B(3),E(13) and A(9)
I've also been guilty of just grabbing a 6/9, too, or even just the dom7 if that full-fisted keyboardist is gonna do what most do when they see the big 13.
As you know, with the guitar, we stack the notes according to the "grab" or according to what's possibole and the guitar player must have a slightly different way of looking at the chords in order to get the job accomplished.
The one interval I will drop (not play) almost automatically is the fifth. Unless the song calls for the powerchord, I don't like to play the fifth as part of the chord on the guitar too much, especially not on the lower bout, for it will create that big, thick, juicy "resultant" when played alongside the root. The Resultant is a ghost note generated by the two together, that is one octave lower than the root at one half amplitude. When there are extensions on the chord, it can often be a recipe for mud city.
--Mac
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Hi Ricke and others,
I'm a piano player and start with the basic voicings described in Dan Haerle's book of jazz piano voicings:
One handed voicings for left hand starting from the bottom up:
E A Bb D (that gets you the third, the 13th, the seventh and the 9th all with one hand!)
and inverted starting at the 7th:
Bb D E A
these may be simplified as follows:
E Bb D for a basic 9th chord
and
Bb E A for a three note 13th
These voicings go together with related minor and major chords in basic ii V I progressions and for the tri-tone substitutions that you hear all over jazz recordings. Haerle's book is a great suggestion if you're looking for how to voice chords that you find in fake book charts. Another good suggestion is the Mike Tracy book on piano voicings for non-Keyboardists which extends the voicings above into two handed forms.
Thanks,
Bill
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Thanks Mac, It’s funny you mention the 6/9. Because that is in the vain I use to cover my tracks and hope that none of the soloists object. It has the soft tones as well as can resolve to the 1 as a regular 13th would. I want to find myself being able to hold my own in a trio setting for some odd reason there would not be a pianist around (should that ever be). In fact, I am going to look at Billy’s two suggestions as to what to play in a fake book setting. I have a couple of the jazz fake books. Though I can find the chords charted I would like to be able to learn how others have handled the movements to where your hand is not jumping the neck as a live chicken on a hot frying pan.
That is where I have been enjoying the BIAB songs. Now that I understand a little about these chord structures I am wanting to learn how to move from one to the other in the context of a song.
Thanks all for always being willing to lend your expertise and most of all for you patience as I am trying to really enjoy this genre while in keeping with its true nature.
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