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This is painful. I'm hoping that there are a good handful of those who routinely use an external keyboard (and its own internal sounds) vs. the Vsti and/or Dxi stuff that is virtual/soft synth.
At this point in my experience, I'm either doing something wrong (likely) or I'm just not all that impressed with the VSC that comes packaged. I'm not sure yet, but I don't think I'm accessing the upper banks...just the standard 128 (might have something to do with GM2 mode).
I am spoiled I suppose, having grown very fond of the Motif's superior library of very, very good sounds.
I would love to learn how to implement/use the Motif's sounds for any of BB's midi tracks as they occur.
I do have some understanding of the Motif's multitimbral mode (in song or pattern mode) I can dial in any 16 patches I desire (patch 1, ch1; patch 2, ch2 etc). Using my DAW, it's very simple and the tracks follow the channel assignments according to midi input channel (I have one actual, and the DAW has the ability to create additional "virtual" midi inputs to accomodate the other 15 I need).
Anyhow, this is old hat and very familiar with most who dabble in this arena.
However, the confusion starts for me here: How do I (or can I) set up the Motif to interpret the patch changes needed/required by BB for a said song and/or style?
There is a tutorial in FAQ that covers the Patch Map thing...and let me tell you, I am NOT that guy who can do it...nor do I have the time to create some 1500 routings of sounds for the Motif (that's a guess btw, it's probably more). I did check, and the only Yamaha product that someone created a patch for was I think the ES model (I have the XS).
Further, as confused and untested as this is for me, I'm not even sure I NEED a patch map.
Heck, maybe I'll just set my Motif up in a multitimbral mode...dabble in BB's SEQ mode, and see what happens...(that could be dangerous LOL).
Maybe I can just will it to happen all by itself? Uh, yeah.
Some help or direction would be great.
Then again...RB would probably solve all of this much easier...just generate the basic midi track, drag/drop it over...get it talking with the Motif, and dial in the instrument patch I want right there for which ever channel...
Thanks in advance,
Eric
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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FLAN.
some ideas.
1. for sophisticated sequencing of the nature you seem to want ,
its prolly best to use RB.
think of things simply this way.
if you build a house you do foundation work, then gradually build the house up and
add all the pretty stuff the wife wants.
so think of biab as doing the foundation for example n then import the biab foundation
into RB n complete the song house.
2. re your motif , in RB you have lots of traks to play with midi wise.
i dont have a motif , but the key with midi is to link a midi trak and its
midi channel in the trak to the external synth midi channel receive.
so lets say you have in RB midi ch 1 as piano , and midi channel 5 as sax lets say.
on your motif prolly you need to set up in the motif ch 1 receive with patch for piano,
and ch5 receive with patch for sax sorta idea.
whatever daw software you use youll need to set up your midi channels on the midi traks
properly and your motif midi channels n patches appropriately.
i seem to remember there are others with motif..
so hopefully youll get further info to make things easier re patches etc.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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The VSC/DXi is not bad but does leave something to be desired. I use the Coyote Forte that PG sells for my midi parts and it does a much nicer job. You can download a 30 day demo and try it out at no cost. I'm not sure what instruments you don't like but keep in mind that BIAB has RealDrums and RealTracks that are actual recorded loops of those instruments. They do quite a good job as backing tracks and the RealTrack soloists are pretty nice too. I'm sure more will be released in time. I very rarely use Midi now unless for custom passages.
You may be able to find a patch map for your Yamaha by searching the web. Having created a custom patch map for my Kawai keyboard, it can be frustrating and time comsuming. Perhaps the XS patches you need would work using the ES patch map. Worth a try?
R
P.S. Keep in mind that only the Melody and Soloist tracks can be customized as the other tracks are reserved by BIAB. You'll have to set those to Multichannel to use with more than one instrument.
Last edited by Rachael; 06/09/10 10:27 AM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thank you both.
I believe Manning is probably on the right path of least insanity.
BB can generate the basic groove (if using midi that is), then I can bring that into the DAW and assign a voice of choice to it at will.
Rachael, I'm totally with you...and prefer the real tracks myself (as far as quality goes). Midi can nearly fool people, as the power of realism often (actually always) lies in two main things: The programing finesse of said midi writer/player/programmer, and of course the quality of the sound module itself (huge part to play there). I often marry both, if not all the time...Midi is great, and so is audio.
Imagine the sounds of Atari 30 years ago. Same info, different engine.
Thanks again,
Eric
JOHN 10:10
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I looked up the Motif XS and it has a GM sound bank. Put it into GM mode and Biab will simply play it, no patch map necessary. That will get you started. The GM bank is probably much, much better than the VSC and you never know, it might really be good and it's all you need. Later you can look into using other patches.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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FLAN - I'm not a techie but I use an external midi synth - Yammie DB50XG. It shows up under BIAB Midi Input, and is listed under Win XP3 as the midi external input too. It gives me more than the available GM Basic sounds. I access the patches using the MSB and LSB for each XG sound. This info should be avail in Motif manual. I noticed BIAB only has the Motif ES in the soundcard list. There must similar voices between the XS and ES. What I do in BIAB to keep the program from reverting to the basic GM voices, I enter the MSB and LSB for each patch I want and then save under Save Song With Patches and Harmonies. This retains the "voice" I want. Hope that helps - web page - There's more about the Motif XS, MSB and LSB - on this FL Forum - may be helpful. As I said I'm no techie, but here's hoping there's a solution somewhere in the forum. Cheers - Ian
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"this is painful" Hi Eric, What Bob (jazzmammal) said. Also, what you said (toward the last of your post). lol A little pep talk for you. As you well know, you have a very powerful synth there, and the complexity that goes with it. Don't allow yourself the luxury of becoming frustrated with it!!!! Allocate the time, get a yellow pad and pencil and take the time to write on that pad as you go. Start with a specific thing you want to do, such as "hook up the Motif to play its GM bank from BIAB" and write that on the pad first. Then take good notes as you do it. Sooner or later, you'll know your way around that mo just like this guy.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGS_O0LRnCAHere's a good article if you haven't read it already. http://www.tweakheadz.com/reviews/review_of_the_motif_xs.htmLater, Jim
I'd be completely happy if I had just one more guitar.
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There are a couple Motif patch maps in the support area. http://www.pgmusic.com/support_miscellaneous.htmTry one. Just copy your patches file under a different name (to keep it safe), and then install the new one. Often it just adds to the basic one you are using now. So you should always still have what you have now, but may be able to also select the patches for the Motif... I read this in a comparison review- "Did you notice that most of the sounds on the ES6 are on the XS6? ... with almost the exact voices/ patches as the ES6.?" So it may be worth checking out... Otherwise definately try using the Motif in GM Mode. You may like the sounds just fine, and be more comfortable just changing an occasional patch to a 'special' one when needed. If you want to take it easy and slow, try that route first.
Last edited by rharv; 06/09/10 05:33 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Thanks to all again...
Ian, I may pursue your path at some point...will have to research the MSB/LSB methodology.
Jazzmammal: The Motif does not explicitly have a GM mode. It does have a GM sound bank (one of 16).
Still unclear as to how BB can tell the Motif to dial in any one of a combination of 16 patches if it (the Motif) is not set in one of its multi-timbral modes (song or pattern).
So many mysteries, so little time.
Thanks again everyone...I will be tinkering.
Regards,
Eric
JOHN 10:10
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Jim...ha, you're right, I've seen Bert before (in other Motif demo vids)...he is an absolute maniac...I love his enthusiasm.
Makes it look so easy.
Sometimes I could strangle the guy...ha.
Probably no better person for the job.
JOHN 10:10
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Hi, Eric -
We stop in Frostburg to get gas in the car every time we go visit our son at WVU. Usually at the Sheetz just off the interstate. It really does seem to be 10 degrees colder than the surrounding areas.
Good luck with the Motif.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Eric,
I use Korg external synths, a PA80 and a PA800. A Patch Map in Band In A Box will allow you access to all the 'Non-GM' sounds in the keyboard, very much like the additional sounds in the Motif. Now, Yamaha has always done some weird stuff as far as external sequencers are concerned, at least to me, and I'm not really sure how to navigate the Motif. I've always heard it was one of the hardest of the Yamaha synths to work with, but once you figure it out, it's a breeze.
Synth sounds are stored in Banks, usually of 128 sounds per bank. If the synth has more than 128 sounds, then those sounds are stored in different banks. To access those sounds, you need access to that bank. Depending on the synth manufacturer, *how* you get to those sound varies.
Imagine your Grand Piano as one sound, your Stereo Grand Piano as another sound, and your General MIDI Acoustic Piano as a third sound. Now, General MIDI, among other things, defines a standard 'patch map' for sounds, so on any synth that is GM capable, the Acoustic Piano will always be the first patch, the Acoustic Bass will be number 33, and the Tenor Sax will always be number 67. These are often called Program Change or Patch numbers. Now, the Yamaha may have sounds that are not in the General MIDI sound set, i.e., the Grand Piano and the Stereo Grand Piano. By the way, I'm just making those up for descriptive purposes. Each sound as a unique address. It is made up of three parts, the Bank MSB, the Bank LSB, and the Program Change. So, the Bank MSB is the State, the Bank LSB is the city, and the Program Change is the street address. All three are needed to send information to that sound.
The Band In A Box patch map is a list of those addresses. You use it within Band In A Box to select non-GM and non-GM2 sounds. Now, for something like the Motif ES line, for the Preset Banks 1-6, and User 1 and 2, the Bank MSB is always 63, and the Bank LSB changes from 1-9 (except 6 and 7). The GM bank is Bank MSB 0 and Bank LSB 0. So, in Band in a Box if you wanted to select the GosplSplit organ sound, instead of going to Presets 2, A03, you would put in BankMSB 63, BankLSB 1 and then select 3. Electric Grand Piano from the drop down menu for sounds. Ignore the 'Electric Grand Piano' part, all you're interested in is the '3' part. Then, whatever part you've selected for that should play the GosplSplit organ sound.
Does this help you any? When you create the Patch Map, you can press the '+' button the left of the instrument pull down, and you can put in the Patch Map. From there, all of your patches will be listed, and you can just select the one you want, instead of looking around for the MSB and LSB values, because they'll already be in the Patch map that's been created.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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JFord: Neat...small world sometimes. My family is from here. I've been half way around the world (in the Navy) and back...ended up gettin' married and landed a job at the ol' ABL (now ATK) Plant...6 yrs and 2 kids later...you know the story.
Well, elevation is everything, about ~850ft higher than Cumberland I think.
I love the simplicity of this place...I'm not one for the big city (been there)...especially with children to raise.
Frostburg is a jewel...though a tad boring...but again, kids fill in most moments of any down time one might have...no time to actually get bored...LOL
Regards,
Eric
JOHN 10:10
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Quote:
When you create the Patch Map, you can press the '+' button the left of the instrument pull down, and you can put in the Patch Map. From there, all of your patches will be listed, and you can just select the one you want, instead of looking around for the MSB and LSB values, because they'll already be in the Patch map that's been created.
Hi Gary, of course I'll have to research this patch map thing...but I'm trying to say, I do not have the time to create a thorough one...however your comment does spur yet another question.
This mysterious + button.
If I can make quick patches on the fly (as time goes on) in this way, this would seem to be the berries.
Only thing I'd have to do is break out the Motif's data list and hunt down the MSB/LSB/PC numbers for said sound (but then again, you say I wouldn't have to do this, unless you're assuming I have made the patch map in totality).
Not sure how to get to the instrument pull down (as to where it is exactly)...just yet...there's a good many menus to get acquainted with...so pls forgive my current ignorance.
Still gettin' my toes wet.
Thanks again for even MORE insight!
Regards,
Eric
JOHN 10:10
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As far as the + button once you load a patch map you get from here to match your synth, Whoever wrote the patch map put in the MSB/LSB and it's description. This allows you to play the 'Golden Trumpet' or Screamin MeME, see. So you assign that patch via the patch map as the melody instrument and voila, the keyboard barks.
This isn't an arranger keyboard, way more possibilities. I also suggest you take a look around the internet, try Band in a Box and Allanah in Google, she has an archive of tunes available for download. In fact a lot. There are others kicking around too.
I spent ages trying to get my keyboard to work with band in a box, and now I use it's sounds, and let band in a box do the work of drumming, bass playing etc, (well I did get a Ketron SD2 (Listen to that on this website), and I just use my system to mix each part. I can either play the sounds in my keyboard, or play on the thru channel to the Ketron if I wish.
Now that RealTracks have got so good I often find myself just using the realtracks and adding in organ or piano myself. Or Accordion, or horns, or Wind Instrument. (I'm getting there, need more wind..but that's another story)
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Eric,
The '+' button simply opens a dialog that allows you to access various patch maps stored on your system. BIAB comes with a number of Patch Maps already in the program. Click on the '+' button, select Open *.PAT. There already is a Yamaha Motif-Rack ES, which might be close to your system. You can click on that, Press Open and then you'll see the 'Variations of' drop down. You can press the All button to see all the available possible sounds that were available when this person made the patch map, your synth may vary.
You should have your list of Patches handy so you can refer to it when you are looking for a particular sound.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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FLAN.
believe me if i could afford a motif , i'd be all over its manual like
butter on toast. the KEY...really digging into the motif manual.
from my read of the motif specs its a very advanced synth engine
with a huge number of sounds at your disposal.
(basically a puter in another form.).
but to get the best out of it, its not a "instant coffee" solution.
ya gotta dig into that motif manual n understand the features
from top to bottom mate and experiment.
wish i had one.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Hi Gary,
I had about 5 minutes last night after building my song list of ~8,600 for the first time (uh, that took a while).
I hit the +, and the window opens up under I think the BB folder. This contained a pretty long list of folders.
I don't think I have any patch maps already (or at least I don't have knowledge of where they might be 'hiding' in the directory) to choose from. You say there are...I'll search more tonight.
I shall try the ES map that exists on the miscellaneous page and go from there (if I can't find it in the directory).
Thanks again to all,
Eric
JOHN 10:10
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Quote:
Jazzmammal: The Motif does not explicitly have a GM mode. It does have a GM sound bank (one of 16).
Still unclear as to how BB can tell the Motif to dial in any one of a combination of 16 patches if it (the Motif) is not set in one of its multi-timbral modes (song or pattern).
So many mysteries, so little time.
Thanks again everyone...I will be tinkering.
Regards,
Eric
The GM sound bank is the same thing as a mode I think. If that bank is selected, Biab should simply play it automatically because Biab sends GM patch changes as it's default. And that's what we're talking about here, the default patches are GM but when you load a patch map, it changes it to whatever the patch map says. And yes, the Motif would have to be in a multi-timbral mode but which one you'll have to find out. Somewhere in the manual will be a chapter that talks about using it as a sound module with a computer or using it with a DAW or controlling it from another keyboard, something like that. That area is what you need to focus on. There's probably a Yamaha products internet forum somewhere, find it and start reading. Sometimes a good review like at Sound on Sound, Keyboard, Harmony Central, Synth Zone or others can give you good clues too. Just type in "Yamaha Motif reviews" in Google.
Any high end pro level keyboard is like this btw. I've used a Kurzweil, an Emu E-Synth and others with my PC over the years and each one is very deep and tricky to figure out for something like this but usually worth it in the end. This is why for simply setting up and playing songs in Biab, most of us just use GM because it's simple. If there's a song you really want to sound it's best, drag it into Real Band where you can use multiple synths either hardware or software.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Jazzmammal: The Motif does not explicitly have a GM mode. It does have a GM sound bank (one of 16).
taken from the Yamaha Motif-Rack ES.doc file in the bb folder
***************************************
-make sure the synth is in MULTI mode (press MULTI twice)
-from the GM menu in BB, select Send MIDI Message | Auto-
send GM mode on at startup.
-to verify that your Motif is in GM mode, simultaneously
press SHIFT + PART> and scroll to channel 10. You should
now see: VoiceNo. = 1, BankMSB = 127, BankLSB = 0
Like most all Yamaha synth modules, the Motif-Rack ES
requires bank select/program change messages to set the drum
channel (ch 10): MSB=127, LSB=0, Program Change = 1. Sending
a GM Mode ON SYSEX command from BIAB will accomplish this.
For the Motif, sending a GM Mode ON command is preferable
to sending an XG Mode ON. Although sending an XG Mode On
message will set up the drum channel to GM mode, the voices
(patches) on adjacent channels will stay set your Motif's
MULTI settings. Sending a GM Mode ON will set all channels
to GM mode.
Last edited by pghboemike; 06/10/10 08:29 AM.
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit 16GB RAM\2018 13” MacBook Air casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
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Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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