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I have song folios by the following artists

Hank Thompson
Grandpa Jones
Lefty Frizzell
Hank Snow
Hank Williams
Ernest Tubb
Little Jimmy Dickens
Bob Wills

That's approximately 80-100 songs and a good start on the founders of Western Swing. (Grandpa Jones is more bluegrass/folk)

The music is piano/vocal/guitar with chord symbols.
What I want to do is generate the lead sheet and lyrics page for each song. Right now each song is 2-5 pages long and I need to turn that into one or half a page like a Jazz Fakebook.

I bought a midi keyboard last week to facilitate the note entry for the melody and it seems to be working good after wading through some midi related glitches. But I'm far from comfortable with the BB software or the finer details of MIDI.

The goal is to have the lead sheet for all 80 songs, with lyrics, and a minus one backing track for each song. (A Karaoke file would be a bonus) At this rate my project will never be finished so I'm fishing for a partner who loves Western Swing circa 1945-1955 and who might have some sheet music to contribute or else has perfect pitch and can play the melody from memory. Or I'll scan the music and email it to you so you can work on it. It takes me forever to enter the correct notes from memory.

I've browsed for something similar and can say a western swing fakebook not only doesn't exist but it's something that ought to exist. It would sell as well as any Jazz fakebook. A few western swing tunes were covered by Ella Fitzgerald so they weren't totally ignored, but anyone who knows Western Swing knows it's pure swing Jazz in nature but the tempo was dance and the lyrics were folk and the artists all sang with a southern accent. Outside of the Texas it's not a well known genre.

I need a partner who has more experience with BB than me and who wants to see the western swing fake book complete. It's honestly the work of several people if not a team. But being copyrighted material it's not something I would invest a lot of money in before being sure it could be a commercial package. It's my personal project because I would use it as a performer and I know others who would use it. I've gigged with a jazz band who worked from a fakebook that didn't include one western swing song. How are we going to rehearse "Stay A Little Longer"? And I can't play any of these songs solo without a rhythm track.

I suspect it has commercial value for a publisher like Hal Leonard but I don't know why they haven't made it yet. I can see the cover now "Play along with your favorite Western Swing Artists" They have dozens of these "play along" songbook/cd packages but none for western swing. Even Jamey Aebersold has hundreds of play along books but none honor western swing. It should be a clue that Ernest Tubb and Lefty Frizzell were prolific songwriters and they have no songbooks in print. I'd like to change that starting with a western swing revival fakebook. If I had a partner I could collaborate with then it would save everyone else the trouble of answering my tech questions and it would also double the production. Or maybe someone else has tried this and determined I should use a Finale type software to notate, then export a midi melody and chord progression into Real Band...rather than notate everything in BB?

Is there an existing tutorial/thread on making fakebook notation and backing tracks? Making such a tutorial would be a parallel project since it's the main reason some people get BB to begin with. My experiments so far have given me hope that the software is capable of doing what I want (even if the notation features are a bit weak) but that I keep overlooking some feature or setting that causes chaos. I think I've made every possible mistake so far in synching a midi keyboard to a computer. I'm surprised I didn't break the internet.

Kind regards,
Oggy

Hi oggy,

You should first do the legal.

Copyright law is different from what most people think - myths such as, "I'm not selling it for money, therefore I'm not in violation," or assumptions that because a song is a certain age the copyright has expired are typically wrong.

Each sheet would therefore have to be researched as to its current copyright situation, often is the case that copyrights have been sold to other, larger companies and the like, such that the listings on original documents are long out of date.

There are ways to license for publication, though, even services that take care of all the ins and outs and footwork, leaving the new publisher with a method of tracking sales and paying the licensing fees for each unit.

As for "memorizing" or having perfect pitch in order to transcribe, there's a far more easier way to enter the melodies into a program like BB with a MIDI keyboard. Simply find someone who can read music well. A good sightreader should be able to run through them rather quickly. Someone with lesser sightreading skills but able to read music can still do the job as well, albeit likely a bit slower for having to take more time to interpret, edit or correct.

I do think it would be best to take care of the legal ramifications first, before investing time and effort, make good and certain of the legalities of the issue and clear the path, so to speak.

Send me a PM here if you like.


--Mac

Hi Oggy,

Have you googled country swing fake books? I came up with a number of country fake books and maybe some or all of your songs are in one of those fake books.

Another option is download MIDI files into BiaB and work on them. The MIDI files will include the lead and backing tracks. You may have to shorten the MIDI file to one chorus and you will have to type in the words; I know that is also a lot of work. I googled country swing MIDI and came up with a number of sites that had those songs.

Good luck!

Thanks for the replies. I took your advice and searched for midi files and Bob Wills and Lefty Frizzell had about 10 out there at freemidi.org. They imported as midi into BB.

It's progress, but I don't know if it makes the process easier since the midi file is like an orchestral score with all the notes, like 20 notes, combined in the melody part. And 12 clefs in the lead sheet. And the embellishments mean I'll have to isolate the melody to line up they lyrics.


Maybe I can do that easier in Realband?

does this sound right?
https://soundcloud.com/oggy-bleacher/money-honey


I can input the melody notes myself on the piano when I record them over a chord progression and the results are ok. I figure I can print the lead sheet and then mute the melody when I export an mp3. Really looking for a mentor with a common goal.

.
Hi Oggy!

I sent you a PM...

Oggy,
First of all, listen to Mac, he's always right. Second, you can use a piece of software such as Music Time Deluxe to edit your midi files and keep only what you need. It allows you to delete one staff at a time. Third, take the edited midi file and import to BB or RB to creat your lead sheet. I think you will probably find a lot of the files you're looking for from Notes' Norton. He's the premier maker of fake books. I have 3 and have enjoyed them all. He also gives you the option of customizing files you buy. I don't know if that includes fake books but I'm sure the BB files he sells could be used to create the fake book you want. Lots of luck. david

Hey Notes, if he buys any, you owe me one..ha ha

Mac is, of course, correct re: his caution about copyright law viloations. U.S. law is unique in that the law changed substantially in 1978 so that works created prior to 1-1-78 are treated differently than those created subsequently.

However, the protection periods are very long in either case (95 years for pre- 1978 works and the life of the writer or last surviving co-writer plus 70 years for post-'78 works.

It is almost certain that the most famous songs recorded by the artists you mention are still in copyright protection...unless some of the songs they released were quite old at the time they recorded them.

Importantly, virtually all of the available midi songs with melodies as well as BIAB files with melodies are illegal.

Most publishers overlook such copyright violations only because there are so many of them, they can't possibly take actions against the violators. However, they can and DO take X number of actions every year to "make examples" out of the violators.

It is well known that college students and other small time violators have been dragged through the courts with very significant financial consequences.

While getting caught is sort of like losing a reverse lottery, it is a chance that can be expensive to take.

With a project like yours, the more it might succeed the more likely it would be that some publisher would find out about it and take action.

"Clearly copyrights" on as many songs as you contemplate for your project would be a VERY daunting and likely quite expensive undertaking.

Personally, I love Western Swing and it would be a hoot to have such a fakebook as you are contemplating so A+ on the idea and best of luck to you.

Just be careful out there.

Best,

Jim

(Music publisher for nearly 20 years)

Interesting idea.

You ask a key question in there that begs an answer.

"I suspect it has commercial value for a publisher like Hal Leonard but I don't know why they haven't made it yet"

Perhaps they haven't made it because they don't see a market for it that would allow them to make a profit let alone break even. To them it's a dollar and cents decision. They are interested in making money.

The genre is "Western Swing Artists of the 40's and 50's"....

The number of people who appreciate Western Swing is a fairly small group of folks in the musical scheme of things....the number of those who are musicians is a smaller subset of that larger group. Most of them probably already know these songs and how to play them. The number of musicians who actually need or want a fake book would be even smaller.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea but understand the market for the product you are trying to put together.

My suggestion to you is as follows.

Put the book together. Make it as good as you can. Get it totally finished. Covers, artwork, music tracks, etc..... get it all done 100%. What do I mean by get it 100%? Simple.... finish the project and go to a place like Staples or Office Depot and use their professional services to actually PRINT THE BOOK on quality paper with full color printing and a 4 color cover stock glossy cover. They can assist you in creating the prototype book with the CD or DVD. The CD also needs to be done to a professional standard. Essentially, you want the exact product the publisher will be selling....and you need to be able to hand it to them and have them be impressed with it. All they need to do is replicate what they have in their hands and market it. This might cost you a couple hundred dollars to do but the finished product in the publisher's hands will beat an obviously home made concept that needs professional care to get it ready. You must market it to the publisher. You should plan to produce about 30 to 50 packages since you will be visiting several publishers and they would want several copes each.


Copyright laws do not apply to something that no one else will see while you are working on it in private with or without a team helping you. Confidentiality is crucial. I have worked on music with other folks who were writing for a specific purpose and non-disclosure was paramount.

Once you get the book together, make some appointments with music publishers who might be interested in such a book. It will be hard to get them to let you in the door. When you go to see them, be sure you have done ALL the work. Essentially, it's a finished product and all they need to do is decide if they will invest the money to print/reproduce it and market it for you. If they do, THEY will handle the copyright clearance issues for you. That is their job anyway.

The work you put into it is your side of the risk..... the money they invest in copyright, printing, and marketing is their side of the risk.

I would not expect to see this sell like a Beatles fake book but it might sell enough to make it worthwhile but the entire success depends on the marketing clout of the publisher to get it into the stores and into the hands of it's target audience.

You will need to have a totally finished project. Dot all the "i's" and have all the "t's" crossed before you contact the publisher. They will not be interested if they have to put any effort into it.

Nothing good or worthwhile is ever really easy. It takes work and determination.

Be prepared to answer some hard questions.
Why would anyone want this book?
Aren't there already individual books for these artists?
How many copies do you think it will sell?
To whom and at what cost?

Be prepared to hear "No thanks... we're not interested" a lot.

But before I close.... going back to your question..... you said you suspect.... not a good idea to "suspect" or guess. You should KNOW before you spend much time working on this unless it's just for you and nothing else matters. (labor of love) Make some phone calls and talk to publishers and some musicians in this genre. Ask them what they think and take it with a grain of salt. Then, after having gathered the facts and doing research, you will know, or at least have a better idea. The more people you speak with now, the more accurate your decisions can be in the future. So don't talk to 3 people and make a decision based on that unless one of those is a publisher and says he has been dying to get a book like that and is willing to send you a cash-able advance check for the book.

That's my 2 cents

Herb, although yours is a good idea it may have one major flaw. Places that print like Kinkos and the places that you mentioned will not print copyrighted material, at least up here.

How it really works:

In the US, the free market system is used to locate copyright violations.

What that basically means is that freelance attorneys, legal aids and even private citizens can locate and report copyright violations and they can be compensated for their footwork in extreme cases. In other words, there is a reward.

In the case of Internet publishing, the usual first step is that the perceived violator will be issued the "Cease and Desist" letter from attorneys representing the copyright owners. That is typically enough to get the person in violation to do what the title of the letter indicates, to cease and desist with the publishing. In other words, stop right now before this goes further and you will not incur the costs of legal defense, possible legal judgement against you that can cost you money, etc.

Own a house? Be very careful here.

Today we have a situation where many of the older copyrights now belong to very large corporations that have scoured the planet looking for copyright owners, relatives, etc. who are willing to sell said rights to these corporate entities. Money in hand is more and more likely to be enticing than possible future royalties in today's economic climate. BIG corporations. With Music Writing Attorneys onboard whom they pay whether the attorneys are working for them at the time or not. That means the corporation would rather these attorneys were actually working for them than just sitting there collecting the contract fees involved.

*Someone, be it attorney, legal aide or just plain snitch, locates a possible copyright violation and reports it to the representative of the actual copyright owner.

*Representative of copyright owner refers possible violation to the appropriate Music Writing Attorney's team.

*Team checks it out, if found to be in violation, Cease and Desist order gets sent.

*Depending on what the party found to be in violation does, the "someone" who is logged as finding and reporting can receive monetary payment for the find.

*Person found to be in violation that continues on with the violation may soon find themselves being served with court papers. Expect to have to hire an attorney of your own, depending upon judgement or court order, you may even be responsible not only for award of damages as defined by a judge, you may even be tasked with paying the legal fees for the whole shootin' match, which means not only the court costs but could also include the other party's attorney's fees. Ouch.

It. Ain't. Worth. It.

On the other hand, if you do your demographics assessment properly and research the proper Licensing Fees for the copyrighted material properly and the math comes out that there can indeed be enough sales potential to cover all that plus yield a profit, you likely won't get rich quick, but such could prove to be a worthwhile endeavor. Be advised that copyists and arrangers are at the bottom end of that food chain, though.


--Mac

Another option if the local big box big name folks won't help is to find a local printer and approach them.

I've not had a single one of them ask me about copyrights on the things I have had printed over the years.

Your book can and should contain a copyright notice.

Sony bought up the copyrights from the smaller publishers like Acuff & Rose. I'd like to invest some time into a product to "prove the concept" to a publisher. Absolutely! Who has time to make $3 profit from selling bootleg fakebooks on the internet?

I'm a sheet music junkie, with more songbooks and single song sheets, band scores, fake books than most music stores. I even have books about sheet music. I probably own a thousand songbooks and keep buying them. It's a sickness. It makes sense that one day I edit/compile a songbook and a Western Swing fakebook is the most marketable and practical idea I've got to work with. It would contradict my love of official songbooks if I didn't try to get it published. Are Alan Lomax and Milt Okun anyone else's heroes?

The Fred Sokolow Western swing and Bob Wills songbooks are P/V/G. I probably have 200 western swing songs in books or single sheets...so I already have the material but in the wrong format.

It's really two separate projects. 1) A paper Fakebook. 2) practice backing tracks.

The backing track part is the part that has no legal issues as long as the melody isn't in the music.

The fakebook can be created with any notation software but I'm trying to combine my effort and work within one interface and maybe have some practice tracks at the end of the day. I have a sample version of Pro Tools and the notation features for that was good but the rest was a disaster and I don't want to learn a completely different interface and then import the melody to Biab.

Are there major limitations with the Biab notation features that will prevent me?

Alan Lomax compiled a song/history book called "Hard Hitting Songs For Hard Hit People" that is so accessible. All songs fit on a single page, melody with one verse and the rest of the lyrics in stanza form. Pete Seeger transcribed the tunes. A little anecdote by Woody Guthrie. It's a great fake book because it's really a musical tribute to an era by three legends of American music.

I entertain play piano at rehab/retirement homes and I've met several audience members here in Texas who saw Bob Wills live in 1941. One woman said, "We didn't think much of the Yankees at first, but boy could those sailors dance."

I also want to transcribe all the Guitar parts by the band Bread. It's annoyed me for years that Bread doesn't have an exclusive guitar tab book since their soft rock approach was so level-headed and popular. But Bread only has piano/vocal/guitar songbooks. I have 4 different Bread songbooks...Bread Complete, Bread Deluxe, Bread for easy guitar, Bread's greatest hits. It makes no sense that they don't have a guitar tab book. I'd like to rectify that but the reason I need all the songbooks is because it takes forever to transcribe recordings. One thing at a time.

I wanted some examples of complete leadsheets and was trying to access some features I think I own. Does Anyone know where I can find the midi fakebook with jazz songs that was included with this package I bought? I can find the classical fakebook, but I don't see this one:

MIDI Fakebook Volume 1

The MIDI Fakebook gives you hundreds of your favorite tunes at the touch of a button. Load the songs into Band-in-a-Box and play along, or create your own arrangements. Learn traditional Jazz and improve your improvisational skills at the same time with the Soloist Feature in Band-in-a-Box!
Includes 300 songs: Traditional / Original Jazz and Pop - 50 Songs. Classical - 200 Songs. Bluegrass - 50 Songs.

Is there another way to load songs than finding them in the folder and opening them from there?

Also, how do I enter two lines of lyrics under the same note?

How it really, really works. (-:

Having been a major music publisher for almost 20 years, not only do I know how it works but filed an infringement action against Mattel that settled uner a Confidentiality Agreement but the damages award would have purchased a couple nice houses...ON MALIBU BEACH! (Too bad that there were WAY too many co-plaintiffs in that action to qualify ME to buy any such houses!!!!!) (-:


In fact, one of the reasons that infringement is so rampant is that the copyright owners...even the Majors...spend VERY little time chasing infringers and stumble across them mostly by accident.

Some have even taken the position that the appearance of copyrighted music on YouTube...sometimes entire albums...is "marketing" in the hope that folks will like what they hear and either become a fan (The Eagles...Beatles etc. get BRAND NEW FANS every single day)or will go buy higher quality versions of the music.

Just spend 5 minutes on YouTube or Google "Songtitle" lyrics and you'll see what I mean.

But you're right Mac..."it ain't worth it."

For example, recently 30 year old woman was ordered to pay $222,000 to record companies for sharing music online. She was ordered to pay $9,250 in copyright infringement damages for each of 24 songs – a meager penalty compared to the maximum statutory damages award of $150,000 per infringement.

Back to the OP's plan...making quite a number of "finished product" examples of such a songbook would be a blatant violation of copyright. And since there would be a "commercial purpose" is making such copies, the potential damage award could be much larger than if no commercial purpose could be established.

And I cannot imagine any publisher taking on such a project based on being presented even with a "finished product" promotional package. If the publisher happens to like the idea, they don't need the OP's work and could just go do it themselves.

Finally, attempting to clear the copyrights on such songs...given their age and the significant changes that have occurred in copyright laws in the late 1970s would make such an effort truly a nightmare. And since print royalties represent a very small fraction of total royalty income streams...it is hard to imagine how such a project could be a profitmaking enterprise.

Having said all this, I must add that I truly admire the OP's passion for sheet music.

Regards,

Jim

Since the advent of cash rewards to reporters of possible infringements, along with guaranteed anonymity, they do not have to spend time chasing infringements - and there is no way for you to know whether or not someone reported the alleged violation or someone would "stumble across them by accident".



Didn't Youtube come up with a legal arrangement that covers a lot of these?

Pretty certain that is the case, a kind of licensing agreement whereby some small part of advertising revenue generated is placed in some sort of pool that purports to distribute monies to copyright holders. Easy enough to websearch for that, if one desires to find out.

I've been in the bidness a rather long time, too, and one thing I'm certain of is that nothing in this category happens by coincidence...


--Mac

@ MAC. Yep...HFA and NMPA did a joint licensing deal with YouTube. I'm sure that's what you are referring to.

But it is as big a JOKE as the Itunes licenses. My publishing companies have been lucky enough to place songs on albums that have sold 60 million units including several #1s and a Song of the Year. But trust me, I couldn't buy an iPad with the total royalties we've ever received from iTunes...and if I had a nickel for every penny I've received via the YouTube licensing agreement....I'd have a nickel from that source.

Why don't I sue Apple? Because an "adverse audit" under court order would cost at least $20k and the legal fees...through an inevitable appeal would cost at least $150k...to recover a few stinking dollars??? THAT is why no one sues Apple...or YouTube which is now GOOGLE!!!

I would hazard an educated estimate that less than 1% of infringements are ever even KNOWN about...let alone prosecuted.

Famously, some dude was selling pirated Warner Bros music on the sidwalk in front of Warner's offices on 52nd St. in NYC!!!! HUNDREDS of Warner executives and employees passed the guy every single day but nothing happend...until some TV station found out about it and did a live shoot there!!!

The FACT is that the vast majority of music infringements are accomplished by members of the general public...most of whom aren't worth filing suit against and therefore, aren't sued except in RARE instances when...as I said...the publisher wants to make an example of some kid and send him/her into bankruptcy which gets in the media and supposedly deters other infringers.

Trouble is...it does NOT deter hardly anyone. The general public has come to believe that it is their birthright to load thousands of songs on their electronic devices for free.

And it isn't just broke college students. Wanna make some fast money? Go to the richest person you know and ask him to give you $100.00 for every song he has acquired for his electronic library that he didn't pay royalties on.

You could make a bundle on the proceeds!!! (To which one wag told me..."How do you think those folks got rich in the first place????)

(-:

Now ask me if I've ever DLd a BIAB file with a melody on it.

I plead the 5th...so I'm not the pot calling the kettle black. I'm just sayin'.

But if I caught someone SELLING any kind of files with one of my songs on it...I would sue 'em in a hearbeat...and such is the way of the business world.

(-:

Best,

Jim

Don't be misled into thinking that I'm defending the process, Jim.

Just explaining it a bit because I don't think the majority of folks have the faintest idea of what's been going on.

Perhaps I've not explained the current process well enough.

Okay, point blank:

They be tryin' to use SNITCHES to report violations with the promise of monetary reward, maybe, at the other end.

There.


--MAC

I'll answer my own question:
The midi fakebook #1 contents are actually not in their own sub folder like #2,#3 & midi soundtrack fakebooks. All the songs are loose in the bb folder and when you generate a song list, something I hadn't done yet though it's an important 1st step, they are grouped in a searchable format. At least that's how it was on my hard drive.

As for adding two lines of lyrics the process involves the "line" button in the lyrics mode and adding lyrics in multiple choruses.

I'm learning a lot about what I legally can't do. It all predicts a bleak future for my western swing revival compilation fakebook and practice cd. Spade Cooley is dangerously close to being a ghost. The professional approach would be to find out which songs are readily available to be reprinted with proper distribution of royalties and stick with those songs alone. It would take some work to contact the true copyright owners of songs from 1936 but it's technically possible.

Jim, can't you call someone at Hal Leonard and ask them to put this on their project list? It would save me a lot of time.

Gotcha. I be jiggy wid it.

(-:

Jim

Sure you could contact Hal Leonard and put your oar in the water. Good on you for thinking about such a project.

Best,

Jim