I just recorded Fly Me to the Moon. I applied 4 Plugins to the Vocal Track. One more than usual. Trying the de-breath plugin that iZotope. Though this time the vocal tracks is delayed some. The vocals start later than I actually sang them. I know I didn't sing that late. It is like a couple seconds off or so. Just guessing.
I think having 4 plugins at once slowed it down. That is my guess because I don't think it has done this before. I applied that de-breath plugin for the first time and now this happened.
Also I have had my instrumental track sound like it is doubling. Plays two it seems one slightly slower than the other. So I reboot and it fixes it. This wasn't happening before. Have you ever seen this situation?
The FX will introduce latency. That's what you're hearing.
Several possible solutions might help. Don't know if this applies to BB as it does to DAWs since I don't use BB/RB in the manner you seem to be using.
1. Increase the buffers and decrease the latency. This would give it a better "look ahead: on the playback. Some folks actually change their settings based on whether they are tracking or playing back. IMHO, this is a temporary fix if it works.
2. Process the audio FX to track. This prints them to the track on a more permanent basis..... maybe good, maybe not.... depends on what and how you work. Again... this is not the optimum way to do it, but is simply a workaround solution until you can get to #3.
3. Use a 3rd party external music interface running native ASIO drivers. MME suffers from latency on the playback trying to handle the load. (THIS is my solution. I can stack multiple FX into multiple tracks and busses and everything runs in real time without latency)
The system can probably handle one or two vocal FX OK, and introduce very little latency in the process. As you add more, the latency introduced at each plug adds up and soon you can hear it clearly. Then throw in a heavy usage plug like the Ozone family plugs.... they do tend to be a bit more intense than some of the default FX plugs, and suddenly you are hearing unacceptable levels of latency.
Since you mentioned that it's the de-breath plug, I suspect that the processing on that one is especially heavy. While a plug like that might be "cool".... I would likely opt to use a manual enveloping or muting on the breaths to avoid the issue altogether. I used to use automatic mode on several of the plugs I use but realized that I got better results doing what they did, automatically, by hand. Now I don't use the "automatic" mode on any plugs.
If you can shut it off and the latency goes away..... you found the problem. Now all you have to do is figure out the way you wish to workaround or solve the issue.
Hope this helps you.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/04/1407:23 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
His system should be able to handle way more than one or two FX on a couple tracks. Using a system with 4 gig RAM I can get 20-30 FX running without issue. I'd venture to guess something else is going on. Shared IRQ? Could cause processor interruptions Fragmented disk? Could cause read delays Disks going to sleep? Can cause weird things to happen
If that particular plugin does seem to be the problem, see if there is a DXi/VSTi option (some Izotope plugins can be installed in either format and one may work better on a given system).
I have never seen a system where using ASIO allowed more FX to be used. By nature MME has more buffer time available, so is usually able to run 'more stuff' more smoothly. ASIO usually makes FX/Synths respond faster when real time response when needed, but MME should not introduce timing issues.
Also, closing down and restarting every so often frees up resources. It's a habit here, like saving often. Every time you do an action that can be undone, that action has to be stored somewhere temporarily. That can be anything from an edit to recording a new track. These add up over time, and closing down frees up those resources. I know some people that leave PT/RB running for days .. I do not do that, nor suggest it. Also, recording to a second drive (separate from the playback drive) helps; it spreads out the load.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Sly are you recording with the FX on? If so try recording without them and add them in later. This is always the best bet, as if you don't like the sound you have to re-record. If you record dry you can make changes until you like it.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
I just recorded Fly Me to the Moon. I applied 4 Plugins to the Vocal Track. One more than usual. Trying the de-breath plugin that iZotope. Though this time the vocal tracks is delayed some. The vocals start later than I actually sang them. I know I didn't sing that late. It is like a couple seconds off or so. Just guessing.
I think having 4 plugins at once slowed it down. That is my guess because I don't think it has done this before. I applied that de-breath plugin for the first time and now this happened.
Also I have had my instrumental track sound like it is doubling. Plays two it seems one slightly slower than the other. So I reboot and it fixes it. This wasn't happening before. Have you ever seen this situation?
I note that SR mentioned : "I know I didn't sing that late. It is like a couple seconds off or so."
A couple of seconds! Wow, in processing cycles, that's an absolute eternity!
It's hard to imagine that a real-time FX took so long to process. I suspect it's a combination of a lot of things. Maybe the De-Breath is just the catalyst, especially as the reboot resolves?
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
wow you guys have some great experience with this. All these posts help out a great deal in figuring out how to deal with this. My thought initially was I just put this debreath plugin on and now it is too much for it to handle in some way. So I thought maybe I could somehow nudge over the vocal track and put it right in sync again. Maybe that can be done. I haven't figured out how to move the vocal track yet. But I am sure it can be done.
But I want to check out the fix on it as you guys are telling me. I don't want to nudge over my vocal tracks all the time if that is even a good option I don't know. I will take off that de-breath plugin for one that caused it. But now since I know latency is coming into play I am going to listen for it.
To nudge it; highlight the track, hold the CTRL key down and drag the track back towards the beginning of the song. This can be done in Tracks view or Audio Edit view.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
...Maybe the De-Breath is just the catalyst, especially as the reboot resolves?
Likely to be involved with how that "De-Breath" has to do its job.
It cannot remove a Sibilance *before it happens* - therefore it has to let the buffer fill with what you sang, then use cpu cycles to analyze that, then apply itself for that area, then repeat the same process over and over again. Ugh.
On top of that, it can likely handle an area where there is ONE sibilance, but another area where the singer has to articulate a lollapalooza of Sibilance-making sounds will really put the poor thing into a time consuming stew.
And then there is the resource-handling issue in the plugin's coding to consider as well. When Reboots tend to "fix" problems such as this one, and I think you've mentioned that a Reboot does tend to do that, it is usually a sign of that Resource problem, typically a RAM refresh routine that can't do the job well enough to keep on truckin' in realtime.
I still think that Sly would LOVE the Presonus VSL for its built in near-zero latency monitoring effects, they use their own proprietary methods to achieve that and over here at my end, Singers especially love using this thing and for that reason. I can choose to record them DRY to the DAW while feeding them a monitor feed to the cans that has dialed in reverb and a few other choice things. Being able to hear the Reverb at least like that can make a big difference for an accomplished singer's tracking, for one thing, they won't be singing overtop of what would become their own Reverb tails.
There's also a way to trick the Presonus VSL and certain DAWS such that one can record BOTH the monitor mix with built in realtime effects AND a dry track as well. Best of both worlds "in the can" all at once, and I've been able to simply just use the WET feed from the monitor mix in the actual recording, no fuss no muss with Plugins whatsoever. That is way cool.
Those who are interested but maybe not quite understanding what I've said above, especially the part about the proprietary method that gets the speed needed out of the USB port on the computer, should visit the Presonus website and read up on how this thing is accomplished.
And the sound of the thing is top shelf from preamps to output and back again.
To me there is no magic bullet that make everything sound great out of the box. You need a good clean Dry recording. Then add effects, and play around until you begin to get what you want. If you record with reverb (other than what Mac described) you might find that you get different reverb sounds on ever track and you end up with a hot mess.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
Sounds pretty good the zero latency feature. I ended up buying the Roland QuadCapture. I was sold on the AutoSENS auto input level feature when I bought it. But I really don't think I am using that. I am better off just setting it by hand really. I thought it would be something I would use. It does have midi inputs also. I don't think I will take this one back for the Presonus though that zero latency might be a seller. I will have to do it the old fashioned way!!
Zero latency sounds good, in theory, but not possible. There will always be a latency, even in the zero latency settings. It's very possible to get it so low that it's essentially non existent.
My system is such a system.
The computer specs, while important, are not the determining factor in how much latency you experience.
The factors that matter most are the sound card or interface itself and the driver mode it uses.
What DAW are you using? I use Sonar and it records the incoming audio direct to the track. All the FX in the track and bus fx bins are applied only to the outgoing sound, never the incoming. Sonar does this by default as most DAW's should as well. So I really doubt, unless you specifically set it up to be on the incoming sound, that you are recording the FX to the track.
A way to check that is to record as usual. Now, simply shut off (bypass) the FX. solo the track and hit play. IF the fx are being recorded going in, you will hear the reverb and everything else on that track..... but, if the track is dry.... you are not recording the FX in real time going in, they are being applied to the output of the track. I suspect you will find the fx are on the output side of the track. That would explain why there is delay.
Also, looking at the tracks in track view, does the audio vocal wave appear to be properly lined up? If so, it was recorded with no latency. Since it sounds delayed coming out.... the latency is happening after the recording on the playback.
Last test is to select all the tracks and do a project EXPORT. Listen to the exported mix. Since the export does NOT occur in real time, the mix process takes as long as it needs, if the vocals are now in sync properly, bingo... it's happening on the output side.
Go and buy a dedicated USB interface running native ASIO drivers and the problem should be solved. However, no matter how good the gear, if you try hard enough, you can always find ways to choke up the process.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Presonus as Herb said is not really zero latency it is ultra low latency. The thing aout the VSL mixer app is the way they include important effects. They have at your disposal a delay, a reverb, a compressor, an EQ, a noise gate, and a limiter built in so you do not have to ad plugins. These can be used live , or recorded. And AS Mac said you can route them to the headphones and not the DAW so you can record dry ( no effects) and still hear the effects in the "cans"
Herb he is using RB right now. and has a Roland quad capture interface.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
First, be sure the drivers being used are the ASIO drivers.
However, even with ASIO is is possible to load up the system so that latency becomes apparent. However, when you are in the +100 millisecond range or higher, you need to find out what is causing it.
On my original Dell laptop, with a duo core processor, I could get the CPU up above 80% and get audio issues but the latency never was an issue. It either ran smooth or not depending on the processor load but I never recall having latency during those high demand times. pops, and audio engine drops, yes.... latency no. All it took to get the CPU load up was to load a few instances of Ozone and Melodyne and I was running in the red.
My interface, Focusrite Saffire, has a control panel with built in DSP effects. Compression and reverb and EQ too I think.... designed to reduce the need and load bu the FX in the DAW processing line. I have those all set very low. Almost non-existent for all intents and purposes.
I'm not that familiar with RB's capabilities as a DAW so I really can not address that issue in detail. My advice there is check to see what buffer size and latency setting is currently being used. Then adjust them a bit.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Sounds like interesting tests. I am just using RealBand when this was taking place. I do have Sonar X1 Le. A limited version. But it sure seems like it has a lot of capabilities. Let me know how it is limited compared to yours. Because it looks pretty complex and powerful to me. Maybe all I need. Unless it limits the quality of the output. That wouldn't be good. I will have to find some tutorials on it to feel comfortable using it. RealBand seems pretty simple. Though maybe all of the settings that I don't know much about are hidden in the preferences.
I have the Roland QuadCapture with ASIO drivers. I believe it is a very good interface. Check it out on Amazon if you would like.
Sly if what you are doing is adding karaoke tracks and singing over them, then processing with plugins any DAW will do, even a lite version of Sonar is great.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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