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I personally rarely use a bog-standard style. I will start a song with one that has as close as possible match with what I have in mind but THEN I will switch out the individual tracks for tracks that suits the song and what I am trying to do with the song.
The 3000 styles is just 3000 permutations of the individual tracks that was created by PG to, in my brain, give you a good starting point.
That, coupled with the Solo generator and the trusty old F5 key does the real good work for me .....
So, having said all that, the amount of real TRACKS (not necessarily the STYLES) is "nearly" enough for me .......
I'm doing allright for Country Trash ....
I used to care, but things have changed (Bob Dylan)
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Roughly 1/3 of the 3000+ styles are jazz and latin. Of those I use maybe 10-12 and only Real Tracks. I, for one, would like to see more jazz real tracks, similar to the new ones in 2014. Later, Ray The way around that, and a method I use all the time is to compose it in BB and use the style you want. Totally ignore what it sounds like at this stage of the game. Save it and open it in Real band and then choose the exact tracks you like from the real band tracks to use in the song.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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As a style author, I find it very difficult to categorize styles at times. Sometimes a style might fit in the Jazz, Latin, and Pop categories. Which should I assign? And although there are some excellent RT styles, using an old MIDI style and a bit of imagination can transform a dance hip-hop style into a smooth jazz style. Choose a mellower drum set, change the synth bass to a fretless or acoustic, change the synth comp to a Rhodes or grand piano, and so on. You can change rock, country, blues, and so many other styles into something else just by changing the instrument patch. And someone mentioned similar styles with slight variations. I tend to like that. Sometimes those slight variations are just what are needed to accompany a certain song while another slight variation wouldn't work as well. As a career gigging musician, I know all too well that subtle little nuances can make a very big change in a song. Of course the >3,000 PG Music styles plus the >600 Norton Music styles plus the Hawkesford styles, plus the Mayrent styles makes for a time consuming style search, especially for the newbie who is unfamiliar with how many of the styles sound. But IMHO it's good, quality time with a trusted friend, BIAB. Plus it's interesting, fun, and the results are worth it. I use BiaB as a scratch pad for making backing tracks for my duo - here is how i make them and how I use them on stage http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.htmlOften times I learn a new song that has been requested by an audience member and there is simply no suitable style in BiaB to cover it. In those cases I have to sequence the tune from scratch, without the help of BiaB. That is much more time consuming than finding styles, and it's a lot more work too. So I jot that song down in my notes and there are hundreds of new styles waiting to be written. For me >6000 styles probably would barely scratch the surface of what I need. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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And although there are some excellent RT styles, using an old MIDI style and a bit of imagination can transform a dance hip-hop style into a smooth jazz style. Choose a mellower drum set, change the synth bass to a fretless or acoustic, change the synth comp to a Rhodes or grand piano, and so on.
You can change rock, country, blues, and so many other styles into something else just by changing the instrument patch.
Insights and incites by Notes
Notes, I was going to say the same thing but you did it for me and better than how I could have said it. I have taken piano parts and turned them into vibes, guitar parts and turned them into strings etc and etc with MIDI. All I can add to your comments is that with MIDI you can change tempos with no audio artifacts. Also by changing tempos some of those jazz styles sound great in country or visa versa. RTs are great and I do use them but MIDI is still my main workhorse.
Last edited by MarioD; 03/06/14 06:55 AM.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I'm with you.
If the RT fits right, it's delightful. If it's almost right, it can't be tweaked very much.
If a MIDI is almost right, it can be tweaked quite a bit.
Two different tools for making music in the long run are better than one.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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If one can drop the mutually exclusive "either/or" mindset and start working with both MIDI and RealTracks together at the same time, they will be better situated to take full advantage of what the program can do.
MIDI use allows us to specify certain aspects of the music, such as Riffs, Hooks, Melody, etc.
Adding some RealTracks/RealDrums to play along with the MIDI has an effect of its own that is rather uncanny - the MIDI parts can sound much more "real" when heard within that context.
Consider that a live combo might have "real" instruments in it, guitar, bass, drums, horn(s) etc. - these days, though, when you get to the Keyboard section of that group, you will be listening to MIDI the greater majority of the time. MIDI Pianos, MIDI Strings, MIDI organs, MIDI clavinets, MIDI Electric Pianos, etc.
And that is not viewed as being "cheezy MIDI" at all.
So what's the difference between a Live Player playing the MIDI keyboard with your ensemble and a Live Player playing a MIDI keyboard on your Recording?
MIDI gets the bad press more because of those who try to use MIDI to play instruments that they themselves really do not or cannot play, resorting to Step Entry programming rather than simply Recording a good performance.
That's not to knock Step Entry methods, but the use of Step Entry usually must involve a LOT of time and knowledge in the Editing, Massaging, and etc. of the track before it begins to lose its cheeziness.
Imagine what it would sound like if you attempted to record an open G chord on guitar - one. note. at. a. time. - and then expect to assemble that to sound like someone simply fingering the open G on a good sounding acoustic, and playing one downward strum...
--Mac
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I agree with Mac on this. And except for someone like Elton John, Billy Joel, or Michael W Smith, it's rare to see an acoustic piano on stage any more. So guess what folks, what you're getting is MIDI generated music. And even those guys use electronic keyboards on a number of their songs.
I like the mix of the two and the fact that I can enter specific riffs, counter melodies, etc only with MIDI. RT's won't allow that.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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I agree with Mac on this also but with one possible exception. I think MIDI gets a bad rap here because one uses it with an inexpensive GM sound set. Any MIDI file, even purchased pro ones or the SuperMIDItracks, can sound like crap when using those sound sets. But replace them with some better more costly sound sets those parts can sound super.
I do agree that Step Entry input methods can sound bad without some massaging regardless of what your sound set.
Just my thoughts – peace.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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...
And except for someone like Elton John, Billy Joel, or Michael W Smith, it's rare to see an acoustic piano on stage any more. So guess what folks, what you're getting is MIDI generated music.
...
Not sure I exactly follow. If a musician is using a keyboard live on stage, the keyboard can have its own audio outs, without using any MIDI, surely? Regards Trevor
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The sounds that come from the Audio Outs of virtually every electronic keyboard made today are internally generated using MIDI commands and internal MIDI synths/samplers.
You are still using MIDI, it is just internal to the keyboard.
--Mac
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I was very leery of MIDI because there is so much awful MIDI music out there! So, generally, I always use BIAB for RealTracks only. But, I recently purchased GPO4 and Addictive Keys and, for piano at least, I am absolutely blown away at what I can do! I still cannot get BIAB to work consistently (maybe it's me) with these plugs but the couple of times things have worked it has been amazing!
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The sounds that come from the Audio Outs of virtually every electronic keyboard made today are internally generated using MIDI commands and internal MIDI synths/samplers.
You are still using MIDI, it is just internal to the keyboard.
--Mac OK, I understand. I know my Roland keyboard definitely has its own circuitry that is separate to the MIDI, which is handled by a separate processor. The keyboard latch and decoders go directly to the Effects board via an ADC, and also to a separate CPU which handles MIDI. Times change. Thanks for the clarification. Regards Trevor
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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But the sound is generated by MIDI. There is nothing wrong with General MIDI either, because there is no sound to any MIDI. All General MIDI does is assign certain voices to certain patch numbers, so patch 1 is always a piano, 33 is always an acoustic bass, and so on. But GM doesn't tell the synth how the piano, bass, sax or whatever is supposed to sound like. ImHO MIDI gets a bad name for two reasons, both of which were mentioned: - Cheesy synthesizers - General MIDI or not, there are some terrible sounding synths out there. A MIDI file that sounds great on a Kurzweil might sound terrible on the sofware synth that came with your computer
- Step entry - sure some techno/dance songs are supposed to sound robotic, but most music is not. Step entry quantizes the notes, does not enter any dynamics, and for most forms of music, those suck the expression out of it. A skilled musician can indeed massage the step entered file into something expressive, but it's a lot of work and takes a lot of time.
According to Alan Parsons (who should know) MIDI has been embedded into the DNA of virtual every hit record for the past 30 years. So if MIDI is cheesy, almost all hit records sound cheesy. Of course that isn't true. I like both Real Tracks and MIDI tracks, and use the one that is most appropriate for the song or the track in the song. Mix and match works well (as Mac pointed out). Just because you bought a new crescent wrench for your toolbox, there is no reason to throw out the hammer. IMHO The software synth that came with my laptop and the old Virtual Sound Canvas that used to come with BiaB plus all it's followers sound adequate for practicing, but aren't ready for prime time. There are different solutions to that problem. Some people like software synths, and I prefer an array of hardware synths. Either one works, depending on the quality of the synths you buy. Here are a couple of clips. I know I've posted them before and I need to start recording on the gig again. They were recorded with an old pre-iPod Archos Juke Box hung a few feet in front of the PA speakers on a gig. Everything but the voice is MIDI. The only reason why it sounds a thin is the mic on the Archos and the bit rate it had to be recorded at: http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_sunshinesax.mp3http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_oldtimeguitar.mp3The backing tracks were made by me with the help of BiaB and then exported to a sequencer where extra parts were added. The lead sax and guitar were played live on the gig by me using a Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI controller and a Yamaha VL70-m MIDI sound module. There are no Real Tracks on those clips, because PG hadn't invented them yet at the time I recorded the tracks. But if I did them over, I might add a RT or two as long as they were appropriate to my 'artistic' vision (whatever that means) Insights and incites by Notes.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I don't think you can view a modern Movie without hearing MIDI at work somewhere in the Underscore these days, either.
And that stuff sounds gooder'n good.
--Mac
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I don't think you can view a modern Movie without hearing MIDI at work somewhere in the Underscore these days, either.
And that stuff sounds gooder'n good.
--Mac I agree, just listen to some of the manufacturers "sound sample" demo's from their own MIDI devices. Sure, a bit of work went into getting them just right, but the sounds are MIDI controlled, nevertheless. Some of the quality is quite unbelievable. Even these ones from the 'pocket sized' SD2
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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I consider the ‘pocket size’ SD2 as a pro instrument. If one wants or needs to work in GM this is a mandatory buy IMHO.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I consider the ‘pocket size’ SD2 as a pro instrument. If one wants or needs to work in GM this is a mandatory buy IMHO. Hi Mario Yes I agree, it is definitely a 'Pro' device. I certainly wasn't suggesting because it's small it doesn't cut it. I own and use one too! Great little unit. Cheers Trevor
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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I don't think you can view a modern Movie without hearing MIDI at work somewhere in the Underscore these days, either.
And that stuff sounds gooder'n good.
--Mac I don't go to the movies anymore, instead I rent them when they come to Netflix. The theaters are too cold and they play the soundtrack at an ear damaging volume (way over (85dba SPL - I brought a meter to one a decade ago and the volume went over 110dba - instant ear damage) - I put in my Westone musician's ear filters. The Netflix bonus is the fact that there are extras on the DVD. The little shorts (so I call them BVDs <grin>). Sometimes they are very good, sometimes boring, I watch the interesting ones. Often there is a BVD about the music, those are mandatory  - and I have seen more than one film where the entire soundtrack was done with MIDI synths. I've also seen symphony orchestras, so I guess MIDI has achieved equal standing with an orchestra as far as film scores are concerned. But I really don't care what makes the music in the film, it's just interesting to find out. What's important to me is; Does the music support the film? Does the music detract from the film? Is it mixed too high so as to cover up the dialog? Is it appropriate? And so on. And on the subject. I always watch the credits, and wonder why the musicians are not always listed. The "honeywagon" drivers are there, the caterer is there, insurance agents are there, the paymaster is there, and quite a few others. Sure these are important to the making of the music, but so are the violin players, guitar players, sax players, and so on. BTW, I just rented a great 'silent' movie done last year, Blancanieves. It's done like an old silent movie with modern cinematography tools and an orchestral score - and it's even in black-and-white (actually grey-scale). It's a modern take on Snow White who ends up with a troop of dwarf bullfighters. The stepmother is delightfully fairy-tale over the top evil, the cinematography and editing are superb, the violence is mostly implied, the CGI work is realistic, and the music score is outstanding. Done with an orchestra plus a flamenco guitarist and singer. Back the original hijacked topic I don't think this one would have worked as well with MIDI. But other movies actually work better with MIDI than an orchestra (think of those sweep synth pads). It's all a matter of choosing the right tool for the job, and we have both at our disposal. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I need to be educated it seems regarding midi because everything Ive listened to sounds awful if its a guitar brass etc but I do like accoustic piano and bass.The super midi for me is a step up but at this point in time RTs is the only way for me but maybe you can show me how to use midi better.
Last edited by tributeman; 03/08/14 08:26 AM.
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I need to be educated it seems regarding midi because everything Ive listened to sounds awful if its a guitar brass etc but I do like accoustic piano and bass.The super midi for me is a step up but at this point in time RTs is the only way for me but maybe you can show me how to use midi better. When you say, "MIDI" it sounds like you are using the term to describe the method used to control the MIDI synth more than the actual sound of the particular synth. Two different things. For example, the SuperTracks sound so good because they are actual MIDI Recordings of live players' performances on MIDI instruments rather than Step-Entry, automatic MIDI track creations, and the like. The SuperTracks therefore include a LOT more of the MIDI data needed to create a track that has more than "just the notes and few velocity changes" in it. The accomplished live player, recorded in realtime, controls the When, What, Touch, Aftertouch sometimes, Dynamics, Note Choices, subtle things like note pulloffs (yes, can even be done on a piano by hitting black key first and letting the finger slide off onto the target white key), Sustain Pedal, sometimes even Expression Pedal, and just plain musical performance knowledge and skill. For example, if Keith Jarret were to come to your home studio and play your MIDI keyboard, or perhaps if Jeff "Skunk" Baxter were to visit and pick up your MIDI guitar, all you'd have to do is hit the MIDI Record button and let the backing tracks roll - and you'd capture that performance. Just like recording Audio. Don't blame the Messenger (which is the MIDI data chosen to play back in this case) -- blame the Message (which is also the MIDI data chosen, just a bad sounding MIDI file). The choice of Synth does enter into it, but the very best of MIDI synths may not sound so musically great when being used to playback some free downloaded MIDI file from an unknown MIDI programmer. Or it might sound superb. Luck of the draw there. Often is the case that the one file downloaded sounds bad, might be wise to search out another instead of trying to "fix" that bad file, or blaming the Instrument when the fault lies with the performer. --Mac
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Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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